Guide's Nightmare

  • Thread starter Scott Hammer TOXIC [IMG]http://www.zjstech.net/~l
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Scott Hammer TOXIC

Scott Hammer TOXIC

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Warrenton, VA
Took out some "clients" on a full day trip. We put together 10 boats for a little private "family" tournament to honor a deceased family member. Usually they do a golf outing but this year they wanted to fish. Here is a picture of the carnage that came out of my boat at the end of the day. The 2 clients in my boat popped their first chilly at 7:30am. Finished a case by noon and had me back to the marina for a second case. Before you all start dogging me about tossing them out of the boat, refusing to go back out etc., keep in mind these were not the type you would really want to tangle with. Beleive it or not, one of my best skills is to be able to interact with every type of person that I take out. I told them they owned the boat for the day but that I had the last say on safety. We were on the Potomac so I kept close to the marina (1 short run) and as the beer started to flow (along with other things), I moved closer to the marina. By weigh in time they were trashed and we were docked. I put three keepers in the well, about 7lbs worth (they finished 2nd, the side bets would boggle your minds!!). I was the only captain that let them party and the only captain to get a healthy tip from the day. Was I right, or was I wrong??



TOXIC
IMG0267.jpg
 
Were the drunks planning on driving from there? In either case, you contributed to public drunkeness. But hey, the money should make you feel better -- it does wonders for me :)
 
Nope, they were passengers with others. This isn't about $$ though. We "normally" allow "some" beverages if the clients want but not what these guys consumed. Besides, what they do on dry land is not my responsibility. I didn't serve them, it wasn't my party. I am responsible for them "on" the water and "in" my boat. If they had gone golfing they would have been just as bad if not worse.



TOXIC
 
I got your e-mail, Wades never looks like that when i'm there!!! You did good if you put em on fish
 
I can't see that you did anything wrong. You're not their mommy.



Harpo
 
Yeah, KB, that was on an incoming tide also!! I kinda agree Harpo but there is this nagging guilt that I feel. I didn't provide the booze or serve it but I feel I usually hold to a higher standard than that. They were inexperienced fishermen to begin with, add the totties and they missed a ton of fish (was kinda the same story from everyone). I like to party as much as the next guy but I have never associated that with a day on the water. I'll bet they weren't feelin too good the next morning, you know what a long day in 80 degree plus bright sun coupled with alcohol will do to you!! Nonetheless...I'm somewhat divided on what I should have done in hindsight.



TOXIC
 
Tox,



My tournament partner has been a guide for about 20 years... He does not allow alcohol on the boat under any circumstances... Even on our own scouting trips we don't bring more than two beers each... He had a very bad experience... At the ramp on returning from a day of fishing... a pretty drunk client argued about the fee and actually ended up hitting my partner... Jail and a fine for him but a lot of lost time and hence money for my partner... That is when he adopted the "no alcohol" policy.



Other guides that I have discussed this with generally have the same policy around here. They are worried about falling out of the boat...etc. And, have had some other discussions where they have seen or heard of things like Dennis' experience. Then, like our personal policy of two... My friend John has a two beer limit per customer... He figures not much trouble with two... But, everyone that has a policy has it "up front" and in writing when they book...
 
Greg,



Normally we don't go more than a six pack for 2 guys. Unwritten and not brought up unless there is a need. This group was different. A New York/Jersey close "family". Like I said, they were not used to someone saying "no". I can not imagine any circumstance to get into physical violence with a client. I will walk long before that if it ever gets to that level. Serious fishermen do not party while fishing.



TOXIC
 
TOX -



On September 1st, I will celebrate 24 years of sobriety..... So I guess I'm pretty well qualified to speak from both sides.....



Me? The first time back to the dock, I would have told them "no more". If they didn't comply with smiles on their faces, I would have handed them their money and tackle then gone fishin' by myself. I would have had absolutely no regrets.







God Bless my ex, Linda; she cared about me enough to confront me.....



me
 
This morning I'm celebrating 6 hours of sobriety!!! This is my last work day of the week....I can't wait until tonight so I can start the countdown again!!! LOL!!!



FYI...I don't drink and drive anything.



Bob G.
 
Tox,



I think that it's a tough call either way. From my vantage point, I believe that you tried to act in a responsible manner. Staying closer and closer to the dock.



I think a point made above is worth considering. As the 'Captain', you are responsible. If one or more gets hurt (or worse), and you allowed them to consume alcohol on your boat, you certainly can be held lible. Of course, you can be held lible at any time, given our court system.



It seems that you are possibly considering a new set of rules. That seems to be somewhat prudent. I'm glad that nothing seems to have come from the situation.



Tex
 
Tox, did read something else in between the lines in your message? Were these "family" members from NY & NJ, "good fellows" or "wise guys"? If that's the case I more than understand why you gave them a little more leeway.



Harpo
 
OH Man, had to be NY/NJ people. I don't think I would have allowed the drinks from the beginning but that's easy to say now. I can see how after they were already drinking saying no or not going back to get more would have been an ugly situation. In hindsight I think you had luck on your side that nobody got hurt,fellover or into a fight.

Hey but on the bright side - nothing happened to your boat,you or your business right?
 
Hmmm Tox, what a quandry. I feel I know you somewhat and I know your communication skills. Did you have the "head" of the "family" with you. I say this because you mention the other Captains didn't let their charges "party" and they didn't get thrown out of their own boats. Is it something that just got out of hand? I can see these guys falling overboard, hooking themselves or you or any number of bad things happening.

What else "started to flow" besides the beer?

I can't condone, nor condemn, what you did because I am not in your shoes. Knowing you the little bit I do I can't imagine you let this go on just for a "tip" at the end of the day.

If any of you fish with me, there is NO alcohol allowed in my boat and believe me, I enjoy it as much as anyone. I will buy after we fish and sit there having a few with you

(right Trepman) but not on the water.

You might have to institute new rules Tox and let everyone know know, right from the start, what those rules are.

Having said all of this, don't beat yourself up over what happened. It's over.



Bill
 
Tox - Did the guys have their PDF's on at all time, boat moving or otherwise?? That would be one concern from my point, a drunk casts w/out PDF and falls overboard, hits his head on the side of the boat on the way down and to davey jones' locker!!!



I've taken a few friends on in the past who are drinkers, with a 6 pack, i've ensured they had their PDF's on at all times, stayed on the lower deck in the back. That was years ago, like Bill I don't allow it anymore, too many possible issues and temptations for me!!!



It sounds like you "know" this group quite well and have dealt with them in the past. SO you have some agreements and expectations from prior outings.



Trep



PS. Yup Bill, after the fishing back at your place for a few cold ones, a nice talk with your lovely wife Nancy and petting the puppies!!



Trep
 
LOL @ Tom:)



Got to stick to my guns Chris. Let's have a FEW after Ghost Lake. Besides I wouldn't be able to run fast enough if I have anything before:)



Bill
 
Bill, I was just kiddin about the before stuff, I actually never "knock on wood" drink and drive anything, period.
 
I agree with your decision. One time guide trip set up as a group, not your normal circumstances. They were drinking, you weren't. I don't know how you did it, but I would suggest after someone has a couple of beers, take away their crankbaits and plugs and give them texas rigged soft plastics. I don't want treble hooks flying around me controlled by drunks!
 
Thanks for the support and wise words. You are on track Harpo. I never questioned my actions or my ability to control the situation. Let's be honest, you cannot institute a "no alcohol" policy. It is no different than a bunch of people who want to go out and party at nightclubs, concert, whatever, and hire a limo to drive them (heck, limo's provide the booze!!). Think about it. The limo driver is not responsible for drunk passengers nor is he responsible if they get out of the limo and into their own cars. He just better not partake himself. As far as them falling overboard or hooking each other, they were not at that point until I was literally 100 yards from the dock. Besides, you can take a dip or hook yourself anytime you are out. I was always in control and they never callenged that. Could I have pushed the issue, sure..could I have forced the issue...probably (the other skippers did). Could it have gotten ugly (back at the dock with the "family" members)..maybe. Ultimately, they were toasting my relatives and family and they wanted me to go out with them after we got back. They had a good time and I can assure you I won't be put in that situation again (to the best of my ability). To hear all the details from this trip, we need to go fishing together. The cell phone calls while we were out (when they weren't speaking Italian and what they would translate) and the stories were truly amazing.



Staci....you do what you suggest and you would have gone fishing with a new pair of concrete overshoes. You do not cop an attitude with this type of clientele, it ain't about giving them their $$ back. It's like leading a bull with a ring in his nose. You have control as long as you keep ahold of that ring, but heaven help you if he gets loose!! You also have/had a problem with alcohol, you are in the minority and your attitue twords it is necessary to keep yourelf out of trouble/sober/healthy. Kudo's to you but most do not feel that way (myself included, I party like an animal).



TOXIC
 
Tox - You should really address this with your insurance carrier/underwriter before it comes up again. Good intentions gone wrong aren't worth your house and every dime you have. My clients know up front no drinking, no drugs, no tobacco, no exceptions. I put it in big red letters on my website. (www.bigdanfishing.com) Ask your insurance agent for their perspective on coverage under those circumstances.



I'm glad they were decent to you. I've seen many people turn different under the influence. Not a pleasant thing to find out a half mile or more from the bank. I caught a fella a couple years ago during a winter striper trip popping a Coors out of his cooler (he was trying to sneak it into a huggie). At 8:00am it was his third (I found the other two cans). I told him and his buddy to wrap it up, we're heading in. The trip was over. I charged them for a half day, although I do not offer half day trips. You're the captain. It's your choice and ultimately your responsibility. Boats and Booze don't mix!
 
Beer!! did someone say Beer........
 
I'm reminded of a sign I saw in a taxi cab I rode in Atlanta one time.



.................CLEANING CHARGES................



SPILLED DRINKS......$25



CIGARETTE BURNS......$50



VOMIT................$150







Harpo
 
So Tox, are thoseguys family too! If so, remind me to slam you less!!! LOL don't want any horseheads appearing in my mailbox!!! LOL



Trep
 
TOX -



So you understand where I'm coming from.....



I have no problem with people drinking around me; I just have no control over my drinking so I don't. I can't begin to count the number of times I have started out the evening as the "designated driver" for friends! Heck, I was even the one who bought Shirley the bottle of wine for all her help at the last rally!



About three or four years after I stopped drinking, I started up a bartending service to provide bartenders, waiters and waitresses to parties in private homes and offices and sub-contracted to some of the catering firms in St. Louis. I would often do the bartending myself. Kept that business for three years before I sold it to one of my employees.



I know it sounds strange but, once I stopped, I had no desire to ever drink again.



You party and I'll bring you the beer! Just remember that I fall asleep on my feet at 9:30!



Remember "Ken" from the "Prized Datsun 240Z" story? He was "Family". His father was an attorney. We used to hang out down "onn-a Da Hill" here in St. Louis..... I have no idea in the world what I might have read into that situation if I were in your shoes.....



My thoughts were more along the line of concern for what your responsibilities would have been if something had happened.....



me!

 
You know Tox one bad thing that could happen is that you impressed them so much they'll be back to repeat the "good time" and send their buddies to have the same type of "good time" and by word of mouth before long you have a large clientell of such good time boys. Now that would be tough!

fatrap
 
Drinking is fine on boats...when the boat's mission and design is to comfortably and safely entertain passengers on pleasure trips. To me, that means high gunwhales, safe walkways, an interior cabin, a head, very calm water, a captain with nothing but safety on his mind, etc.



Bass boats are not a good place to be drinking. Lots of stuff to stumble over, no gunwhales to keep you in the boat, high speed travel, etc. Even an errant cast can be dangerous. If a drunk lands a hook in your face, are you gonna be sure he won't set the hook thinking he's got a fish on?



I've had problems fishing just because I was too tired to be out there, and I had to pack it in for fear of hurting myself or someone else. Can't imagine mixing alcohol into the equation.
 
Can't wait to hear the whole story one of these days Tox. Sounds like you managed the situation as best you could given the circumstances.(keeping them close to the ramp and all) Glad it ended well.
 
Tox

Upon reflection what was the difference between your outing and a Nebraska football game? LOL LOL LOL

fatrap
 
The biggest difference was that "I" was not drinking on the boat!! At NU games, I'm lucky to remember my own name. As a matter of fact, I am getting ready to choose which game I am going back for this year. My body can only take that kind of punishment once a year.



TOXIC
 
Pick one durning the pheasant and quail season and I'll give your body a new reason to complain.

fatrap
 
It is illigal to drink in a boat in Canada unless the boat has a sleeping quarters and bathroom...(livewells don't count) that would have taken care of the situation...but....this is different, I guess the decision is 1) try to mitigate the situation or 2) possibly end up at the bottom of the potomac....



Good Choice Tox, cleaning the boats isn't that big of chore.



Pierre
 
Pierre - I remember that "warning" from our Nestor Falls outfitters every 2 years that "no booze can be consumed in a boat". And technical it applies even on these private lakes we fish. I've never had it happen to me or my group, but we've been told of the Canandian DNR dropping down on the lake via float plane to check for beer in boats, correct size/slot and numbers of Walleye caught, and that they've even done digging and searching around the campsite to look for carcasses from fish to see if the folks kept too many or too large/small!!



Of course on the beer, who ever's NOT driving the tiller that afternoon MIGHT have a cold one or 2 in the bag over the side, but NEVER me!! NOPE!!!! LOL
 
Goff, you have to be psycic, or is that psycotic...LOL!! These guys told me about wrecking golf carts last year!!HAHAHAHA!!



Dan, I agree that if the rule is posted and reiteriated before they decide to book or pay any $$ then you have the right to end the trip if they decide to break the rules. In this case there was no mention. It was left up to the individual Skippers. I took the path of least resistance and as Pat Stated "no harm, no foul". It could have turned out differently though, I understand that. I hope I will not have to deal with this again in the near future...by the way, Teddy called me last night, another private tournament in October....oh, great!!!



TOXIC
 
Hey we made Toxic an offer he couldn't refuse...otherwise ba da bing, he sleeps with the fishes. Youse gotta problem with dat?
 
Whoo hoo on the Potomac Tox? lets hope it is a diffrent group :-0



Am off to the River today after work. Will do soem scouting and get you some ideas!



Carlos
 
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