Who is the ammo guy?

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Michael Snow

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Who is the guy here that works for the ammo company? I'm looking for some good .380 auto personal protection rounds.. something like whatever the new name for Black Talon is... I want the meanest, worst possible round available since I'm carrying such a light load to begin with. Any info appreciated.
 
It's Rob that works for an ammo company I think. I'm sure he'll chime in when he smells gun powder conversation.



Harpo
 
Rob doesn't work there anymore...but he'll be able to point you in the right direction anyway. But JR's right,...all you need are hollow points.



(location,...location,..location!)
 
I had a .357 and still have a Ruger P-89 9mm. I wasn't carrying the .357 because it was too big and heavy. Kel-Tec makes a 380 now that's about 8 ounces and small enough to fit in a front pocket. It holds 6+1. I'd love a beefier round, but it does me no good if it's not with me.



I haven't even fired the Kel-Tec yet. I sure need to. It's funny because the travel is so short, it's almost impossible to eject an unfired round because there's just so little movement or opening or whatever.



Sorry to hear Rob changed jobs already. I was gonna hit him up for some wares :).
 
If you are looking for a CCW firearm... A .380 is a "compromise" that has only minimal stopping power... It is at the botttom end of the primary weapon scale... Even the best .380 P+ Hollow points are only about 50-60% effective one shot stops. A 9mm is only marginally more effective. Handgun are simply incapable of generating sufficient velocity for small caliber rounds to be effective. And, when you start using smaller cases, shorter barrels and lighter bullets you are really maginalizing yourself. In todays marketplace there are .40 cals and even .45acps that are as small as any .380. They are much better choices if you are carrying for serious social purposes.



Do some "real world" testing... 9mm and .380 (even .40 and .45 acp) hollow points have a very poor record of real expansion in anything other than ballistic gelatin... Oh, pig carcasses are the same... But, pigs and ballistic gelatin blocks don't wear leather jackets, t-shirts and sweatshirts in winter... Some of the vaunted hollow points turn into great "hole pinches" filling with leather and cloth and sliding right through...



I intend to "rain on the parade", because you guys are my friends... I have "real world" experience and did some exhaustive tests back (now) a few years... Yes, I know bullets have made great leaps of improvement and some of the best weren't around 15 years ago... But, I am telling you what this old "geezer" believes... There is no substitue for caliber... a .380 hollow point is trying to grow up and expand to a .45... Start there... and if it doesn't expand... oh well its already "there"...



If you are carrying for serious social reasons... saying like it is more likely than not that you might need to use it... carry something with a known one shot stopping history of 75% or better... That is a good .357, a good semi jacketed semi wadcutter solid soft nose, out of a 3" or better... a .40 cal or a .45acp... Those all rate factors of 75% or better (some up to 90%)...
 
Yeah,

What Greg said HAHAHA Nice one Greg. You do know your short guns!!!!



Carlos
 
Mike, I work part time at a Gun's and Tackle store and we sell alot of the Federal for law enforcement/personal home defence, it's called the Federal Hydra - Shok, and there are other Mfg.'s of personal defence ammo, I'm in the store tomorrow and I'll check on the other Mfg's and let you know. I know we still have some Black Talon left in just one caliber, I can't think of what caliber right now but I'll check. I use the Winchester Silvertip HP in my Seecamp 32 auto, and I also have a Kimber 45 custon piece, and German made Walter PPK stainless in 380 Auto. I love the Seecamp and they are going to making a 380 model and we have some ordered for the store with my name on one of them.



Buzz
 
LOL



I'm surprised no one has quoted the old adage that says that if you're going to carry a rifle on the field it should start with a "30" and if you're going to pack a sidearm it should start with a ".4"



It's not the round my friends, it's what you can shoot well under stress. For some it's a .380 and for some it's a .45 ACP. It's all in what the person is comfortable with.



I carry either a Glock .40 or a Kimber Ultra CDP in .45 ACP for the most part, but when mode of dress is a factor I carry a Smith and Wesson Airweight in .38 spl.



My favorite quote is from Farnham... "As a civilian, if you need more than 5 or 6 rounds to take care of your problem, you're problem is likely going to take care of you."
 
Greg, you find me a .45acp that's as light and as small as the Kel-Tec 380 and you've sold a gun to me. The .357 I had was a j-frame but not the airweight (obviously, since it's only a .38). It was just too big to carry comfortably concealed. Of course, weight was against it too.



I fully realize that Kel-Tec is not the gun a S&W is, but when it comes to nothing or something, I'll take something.



I currently have the Federal Hydra-Shok, but they're expensive. I was hoping to find something else that wasn't as expensive that I could run a few hundred rounds through it with. I don't want to run only "practice" ammo through it and not know that the hollow points will go through it as well. If there are mis-fires or jamming, NOW is when to find out :).
 
Greg, even if there were a .45 that was as small as the KelTec in .380, most people wouldn't be able to hit a city bus with an 8 oz. handgun firing a projectile packing that much energy.



Some peoples' body shape, dress requirements, social schedule, etc., don't accomodate carrying the bigger calibers. Since having a gun, even a .22 pocket pistol, is a useful deterent for some cases, don't you feel a small caliber weapon still has value? And somebody who practices to the point where they can effectively wield whatever they carry, be it a .22, .380, whatever, is still far better off than an unarmed victim.



Besides, don't you Marines just see a pistol as a tool for fighting your way back to wherever you left your rifle?



 
Rich,



I retired from the Sheriif's office after 19 1/2 years... Counting the 6 months before I went to the Marines and the six months in California and the 43 months in the Marine Corps... I carried a handgun for almost 25 years... The last 8 years ( 6 1/2 in a primary command role) I served as the Command Sergeant of the 370 officer departments 20 man Tactical Response team and as it's principal armorer and firearms instructor and Captain of the pistol team... I have a reasonable base of knowledge... A lot of it first hand... "Practical" knowledge... learned the hard way.



Research some real world incidents... I have numerous first hand experiences... One, very early one comes to mind... Jim Vargas, a friend, who was in 1972 serving as a Patrolman for the Illinois State Police, stopped what turned out to be an armed wanted felon. Jim put six well aimed 9mm Winchester Silver tips into that felon's torso...unfortunately he did not hit anything vital... The felon was able to shoot Jim three times with a .38... ending Jim's career and almost his life... The felon died from his wounds but was able to stand and return fire and drive off after being repeatedly hit with those 9mm rounds...



About the same time, another ffriend Don Barkovitch, an at the relevant time "off duty Sgt. from the Schaumburg, ILL department shot three armed bank robbers who had just robbed a bank, two dropped and died "on the spot" (unfortunately they had killed a Northlake officer before Don drove up on the scene)... Don was carrying his duty Colt .45acp... The first felon died on the bank steps... the second on the sidewalk... both hit once... the third died in his bed within hours after fleeing the scene... All three were hit once...



My personal experiences with a handgun were all after I began carrying a .45 on duty and in the Marine Corps in Vietnam... I never had a failure to end the issue with one or two "well placed" shots from a .45..



I had probably a dozen experiences of small caliber shootings in bars, at domestic disputes, with police officers hit by small caliber gunshots twice... Most of those people either did shoot back if they were armed or could have... I recall that I had at least one police office shot in the lower leg with a .45 and two civilians who were also shot with a .45 in the torso, all leave in ambulances... All three looked pretty "ineffective" to me....



I am telling you "truth" not hype... Marketing hype and "braggado" create "tales"... Small caliber handguns are not effective personal defense weapons... Jokingly, you might just really aggravate someone shooting them with a "little gun".



Mike, I would be happy to send you email suggestions about small .45s...



And, small .45s are not hard to handle... They do take practice... But, like any tool... any pistol, rifle, or shotgun that you don't master won't get you a desired result.



Loansharkx... what you hit with... after you learn to hit with it counts... And, if you ever have to use it and find out it doesn't generate the desired result I hope you are alive to trade that .380 for a real caliber.



Final, note, and then I am off my soapbox, except for private questions... The US Military has quietly abandoned the 9mmm for special ops people because they learned that in pistol calibers they needed a .45... Hence the new "big" HK .45... They relearned what they had already learned in 1900... in the Phillipines. A pistol is useful for defensive purposes only if it incapacitates or kills... It's why the US Army dropped the .38 revolver and went to Browning's .45. Time passed and they had to relearn that lesson....



In serious undercover assignments I might "compromise" and settle for a small .40... But, otherwise... If it's for "social" purposes, it's a .45. Everything else is an invitation for a second place finish if a gunfight breaks out.

 
Greg,



Well written! I have read several articles backing up what you wrote and I agree, even though I have no real world experience. I also hope that I never have to use my 45 ACP, except at a target, but it's nice to know that it's a good caliber to carry!



Bob G.
 
Greg ,And I'm sincere about this,



YOU ARE ONE OF THE FUNNIST PEOPLE TO BE AROUND THAT I HAVE THE PLEASURE OF KNOWING.

 
Mike,

Greg was dead on. I don't work for the ammo company any longer. Conflict of ethics. I had them...they didn't! LOL

The .45 ACP is an awesome all around round. The most popular law enforcement round issued in the market today is the .40 cal. The 9mm has dropped in popularity considerably given the limited weight sizes and stopping power.



But with regards to your .380 question, both CCM and Federal make some premium "core bonded" hollow points. I cannot recall, but I believe they MAY be law enforcement only. If not, try some, they are worth every extra penny. The bonded lead, holds it's integrity longer, therefore keeping it's inertia (sp?) and getting better penetration. But when they do expand....watch out....VERY nasty! They were a lot of fun to gel block test, EXCEPT they kept knocking my blocks off the test stand, so I could never get an accurate analysis compated to conventional rounds. Needless to say, it was obvious that they were out performing them.



Winchester also makes a great round, but I found it to be VERY particular about what weapon it was fired in. It would fire great in one gun, and not so hot in another. I found the same thing with their silvertip hunting rounds. I have a Winchester model 70, and the Federal actually fired better in it than the Winchester ammo.



Anyhow, best thing to do is test different rounds yourself. Rather than expensive gel blocks, go to the phone book company and get about 20-25 old phonebooks. Soak them in water overnight. Then line them up together and bind them with some twine. Shoot into the books and see how far the round penetrates. It's a much cheaper way to test then gel blocks, but the wet paper simutlates flesh remarkably well. It IS a bit more dense, so remember that. But it does simulate the "full clothed/cold weather" penetration test nicely.



Hope that helps.



 
Funny... My wife never uses the word funny.... LOL
 
Greg, email me some suggestions. I know the 380 isn't the best round out there, but you've gotta have something. I'm hoping Kel-Tec can push the 380 into a 380 long (9mm) and try that.



What I'm not understanding is why Kel-Tec can do this and the first widespread polymer frame manufacturer that I know of, Glock, can't or hasn't.



Even if a company like Glock could make such a beast in .45 and tell me it's good for 100 rounds only, that's fine. Run 10 or so test through it and then replace it if I ever really need to use it.



Besides, I honestly hope the only way I'd ever have to "use" it would be as a deterrent.
 
Greg, I absolutely respect your opinion and experience. I counter that with my own experience and perception, not of firearms, but of human nature. I'd rather honest people arm themselves with any personal defence weapon, including non-firearms, rather than go unarmed because they simply can't make a .45 work.



Shooting incidents have so many elements of chance involved. I realize that a .45 removes some of those elements of chance.



One shooting incident with a .22 was caught on film and has been replayed many times: John Hinckley attempting to assassinate Ronald Reagan. In that particular case, the .22 employed by Hinckley had a 75% one stop shot rate, as three of the four victims immediately went down from a single hit. Reagan was the only person hit who was still functioning after being hit. Obviously, that outcome is not a realistic predictor of .22 shootings. It just illustrates the deviation that can occur from common experience.



Then there is the incident captured on film in South Carolina with a state trooper who shoots a suspect multiple times with a .357, and quickly dies when the suspect hits him with a single .22 round that misses the trooper's vest under the arm and hits a major blood vessel. Trooper goes down and expires in under a minute, while the perpetrator survives several .357 bullets to the chest.



I know the bulk of available data supports your experience and observations.



The old saying from a long-time Texas Ranger, when asked why he carries a .45: "Because they don't make a 46."

 
Rich, to add to your .22 info. The .22 caliber had killed more people in 20th century than any other pistol caliber. There are many reasons,

First the .22 is affordable, therefore more people have it making it more likely to be used in incidents.

The .22 does not have the weight retention or penetration power to exit the body cavity, so it finds a bone or artery and "tumbles" along that path, much like shrapnel, causing a LOT more interior damage.



When I first reads those stats, I thought "NO way!" But it's true. I have tons of what most would consider "useless gun info" tucked away in my head. Comes in handy from time to time.
 
I agree wholeheartedly with Greg. I wouldn't carry anything less than a .40 for a personal protection weapon. If you MUST carry samller calibers, than definately use quality ammo, and shoot ALOT, and under some kind of stress. Shot placement will be critical. I have always used Corbon ammo in my carry guns, and highly reccomend you try 'em.



Craig
 
Greg (or Rob, or Carlos, or anyone), question: Why hasn't the 10mm gained more popular in the marketplace? Wasn't that the "modern cartridge" solution to law enforcement being undergunned with .357 and 9mm?
 
From what I was told down at the academy (on a sales call) was that the ammo at that point was not being mass produced enough to bring cost down to a reasonable market price. Plus there was overly aggressive recoil. That was a problem with some female troopers and troopers of smaller stature.



What I THINK it was, was something more political. It sounded like they were just coming up with reasons to rationalize the decision. What the actual thought behind was, will never be known unless you're in that little circle. But that's just the northeast. Also, there are not a lot of mfrs that make a receiver that size. Plus, the larger caliber you go to, the less magazine capacity it can hold.

So you can have say 75% max knock down power and 15 shots

OR

90% max knock down and only 10 shots.....?

Tough call.
 
WHOA Rich. I've never heard anyone call a .357 mag "undergunned". The 9mm was the standard and they tried to make the 10mm the standard. However, the size of the .45acp dropped and both the .357sig and 40S&W came out. I think the .40S&W made the .357sig quickly obsolete. The 10mm never caught on because it wasn't "that much bigger" than a 9mm. The .357magnum's ONLY downfall is number of rounds is usually limited to 6, whereas at the time, the semi's were usually 12-15 rounds (pre-ban). I believe the .357mag is still one of the best personal defense rounds available. The bullet may not be that big, but the casing holds lots and lots of powder.



Besides, let's be realistic about the "they don't make a 46". The .44mag beats a .45acp hands down, and they do make the 50mm round for the desert eagle. I was firing my 9 at the range and the guy at the other end of the range was hurting my double-protected ears with his desert eagle. You want one-shot stop power, that's the one to have :).
 
Yeah, the 50mm kills on BOTH ends. It HAS to be ONE shot stopping power, because that's ALL the average man can shoot it on a given day! LOL I watched a 300 lb range instructor touch one of those off with his own hand loaded "hot" rounds. It put him back about 3 or 4 steps. A PISTOL!!!!! No sir, not for me! NO thank you!
 
Mike, not necessarily undergunned in cartridge power, but power + number of rounds.



The Texas Ranger quote predated the .50 Desert Eagle, and quite possibly the .44 Magnum.
 
I keep promising to shut up... but someone asked about the 10mm... Here, in Jeff Cooper's own words... why it's not caught on... (jeff was one of the original developers of the 10mm... He has since determined that it wasn't really a good idea)



"When Whit Collins dreamed up the Bren Ten cartridge back in the dark ages, the idea was to obtain equal or superior stopping power to that of the 45 ACP in a weapon of less bulk. The 9mm P cartridge has never been quite up to serious combat potential since its inception back in 1908, but fitting a truly big-bore cartridge into pistols designed for the Parabellum round did not at once become accepted. The Browning P35 service pistol had much to recommend it over much of the 20th century, but it is not possible to stuff a 45 ACP round into that action. Whit Collins went back through the stacks and discovered that one might get fairly good impact effect out of a 10mm (40 caliber) cartridge, and this proved to be a practical idea. Experimentally in California we were able to get a 40 caliber pistol bullet of 200 grains up to about 1000f/s without blowing anything up, and this gave birth to the idea of the "Bren Ten." This was a very promising concept, offering slightly greater power in slightly less bulk. There were, however, problems. The Bren Ten cartridge, loaded up to its full capacity, tended to be very hard on machinery, and it wore out available locking systems pretty quickly. It also kicked pretty hard. One answer to this situation was to load the Bren Ten cartridge down enough to avoid excessive violence. This resulted in the succeeding rounds known as the "40 caliber Smith & Wesson" and its cousins. A downloaded Ten is probably a better fight-stopper than any version of the 9mm, but it should not be mistaken for a full-house Bren Ten. Many people do not understand this and extol the 10mm Smith & Wesson as a satisfactory successor to the 45 ACP. Things do not exactly work out here, and while the Bren Ten as fully loaded is a pretty decisive service round, the "Attenuated Ten" comes on somewhere halfway between the Parabellum and the 45. This is not a disaster, though it does confuse things somewhat. It is unnecessary to bear in mind that the "Attenuated Ten," while a pretty good round, is not a way to achieve something for nothing"



And, writing on the suject just this (2004) April in a short article in Guns and Ammo, Cooper stated;



"We recently had occasion to discuss the history of the Bren Ten with a correspondent who was obviously more of a collector than a shooter. The Bren Ten was a concept of mine, and while I am not ashamed of it, I admit that this concept was not entirely sound. What the Bren Ten pistol achieved over the 1911 was range. The full-house, 10mm cartridge--definitely not the attenuated 10s that are popular now--pushed the effective range of the combat sidearm out beyond that which is usually expected. But extending the manageable range of a combat pistol out beyond the ability of the shooter to utilize it does not accomplish much. The full-house Bren Ten should be able to achieve reliable one-shot stops out to at least 50 meters, but pistol actions do not take place at 50 meters. The combat pistol is best employed at distances hardly more than across the room, and the Bren Ten will not do this any better than the venerable .45 ACP, or so it would seem."






http://www.home.earthlink.net/~gnappi/
 
And the one thing we sometimes forget...you are responsible for what that bullet penetrates once it leaves your gun, to include bad person or innocent bystander. Which is why I would never keep a 9mm or other high velocity guns in my place of business. I am too afraid of what I would hit should I miss my intended target. I like a big slow bullet that will hit like a ton of bricks.



My 2 cents.



Michael Stalnaker



 
Michael, they make ammo for just that situation. It is a granular product that is compressed into a bullet shape (not very accurate, max range is 40 feet) but it is designed for interior combat. It penetrates the first layer of skin and can take someone out, but barely. It will penetrate a sheetrock wall, but not the second layer. I can't recall what they're called right now. We were working with one of the premier mfrs when I was at Natec.
 
Michael,



Inside a business location in an "under the counter" piece or on the hip I always suggested loading three Glaser Safety slugs followed up with traditional ammo...



In a house... say like mine... you might encounter a myriad array of defensive weapons... But, a good choice is a 12 or 20 gauge short barrel with an attached tactical light and redot sight.. loaded with conventional #6 shot... in a cylinder bore at 10-20 ft it is a virtual "deer slug" opening up to about 3-6 inches in total pattern... However, it will not effectively penetrate two sheets of drywall after 25-40 feet... So, at close range it is very lethal... at greater (long hallway 30-40feet) distances it is still very effective at "putting down" an offender and it enjoys a safety factor that it won't be sailing through the neighbors walls (windows..maybe)... And, nothing (thanks to years of Hollywood Hype) deters like the sound of a pump slide being worked... It just screams "here comes the Cavalry!..." And, two or three rounds of #6 backed by #4 buckshot (if things turn to broken field running) gives a man an edge (#4 buckshot is .25cal...)
 
12 gauge 00 buck, that's all I ever load for home defense. If it penetrates a wall...so be it, but that SOB that's between the wall and my gun is going to redecorate my wallpaper with his inners!
 
Rob,



Go out and try some #4 buckshot... Our findings were a lot more reliability with the increased pellet count... There are only 9-12 #00 in a 12ga... and you get very "blown" patterns at 30-50 feet... patterns that a felon just might walk right through... You get 27-34 pellets in #4...



But, an "in-house" shotgun is a different animal from a tactical shotgun. In an in-house shotgun I use rifled tubes to encourage rapid shot string dispersement... I want that column to open up rapidly so that penetration is reduced. ( I will also be carrying a .45 if I happen to need a "placed" round). For a tactical shotgun... aimed fire with substantially retained downrange shot string is desireable (not a "scattergun" effect); there I use a "product" listed below, the Wad Wizard.
http://www.wadwizard.com/LE.htm
 
Well crap.. my "house" protector (other than the 9mm) is a Russian SKS. Not a very good "home" gun, but walls won't be my problem :).
 
Just to add,.... the law enforcement types I lift weights with are using core lock ammo. Like Greg said a hollowpoint get's stuffed with jackets, clothes, greatly reducing it's effectiveness.

The 380 as said is the bottomline in a protection round and a person using that caliber should be proficient enough with the gun to make a head shot I have been told. I have a 380 because I have an almost unlimited supply of 380 hp ammo.

Having just bought a 40 S&W to replace my 1911 combat commander as my traveling about gun I'm a little confused as what would be better. Stay with the 45 or go with the 40. The 40 has ten plus capacity and the 45acp seven plus one. My 45 round is a 225 grain jacketed hollowpoint chronographing out close to 900fps.

The 40 is shooting(for self defense) a 180grain hornady XTP hollowpoint. Haven't got it out to chrono it yet.

Ok guys which would you choose. My 44 Rem mag is tooo big. Same with my large frame Taurus 357 eight shot.

fatrap
 
Fatrap,

I vote for the .40 More manageable recoil (equals more acccurate follow on shots). Why shoot just one time when you can shoot more bullets just as accurate as the first shot ;-)



Bet this discussion ends up pretty good too.
 
Not being a "gun guy", I'm going to jump into this anyway with my own anecdote. I have seen people running through a perimeter taking multiple hits from an M-16 yet continued on. I have also seen these same people not only stopped when hit with a .45 but actually picked up and thrown backwards. They did not get up.





Bill

 
Bill,



Been there, done that, bought the hat and the t-shirt... It's one of the reasons why I "know" the .45 is a "one shot stopper".... But, you just can't tell this "younger generation" anything... LOL!
 
Rich, I use the military surplus stuff from the gun shows. I've run several hundred rounds through it, never a mis-fire, never a jam. Comes in a green box with 20 rounds per box.



Hey Fatrap, wanna send me some of that 380 ammo? :)
 
Mike

I don't know the legal issues when sending ammo. Find out and we'll see what it cost to send. It's all jacketed hollow point.

The stuff I get is "seconds" from a reloading outfit. A friend of mine is a engineer at a scrapyard "Alters Int." and has several 55 gallon drums of mixed ammo the company has in a isolated semi trailer. I can go fill up six gallon drums when I want. The 380 is mixed with 45acp,40s&w, 44mag,45 long colt etc etc. I also have about 300 pounds of .223 55 grain soft point. The 380 has to be checked for proper size by running it through a sizing jig. The bad stuff I resize with my reloading equipment. All the other stuff I break down and reload the components to my specs with new powder and primers.

Too bad you don't live close to the Omaha area you could just drop by.

fatrap
 
I use to have a 44 magnum on my night stand .I was single at the time and going to school and living in the country. My two Irish Setters always stayed in my room with me on the second floor. Needless to say the moonless nights could be very dark with the house cloaked in mature pines.



Anyways one night around 2 or 3 am my dogs moved of the bed and awoke me.I had them heel back down while I listened for what they had aready heard. Someone was coming through the back door and trying to be very quite about it at that. In the dead silence of the evening I could hear them working their way through the kitchen then the front room and then the stairs to my floor.I eased my way up in bed for a better sitting position cocked back the hammer and took aim at the door waiting for them to come to me.

The setters just sat there quitely with me watching, listening. finally they were right at my door.the door then opened ever so slowly as they were trying to be as quite as possible I was a split second from letting the first and probably the last round rip when I heard a small still voice say "Mark" Luckily I recognized the voice,asked the question and then said turn the light switch on. She did so and just about wet herself when she seen me sitting there calmly with a 44 aimed at her torso.

It happened to be the young lady I was dating at the time who said that all she wanted to do was suprise me !Needless to say we were both a little surprised.lol I She never tryed that again.



The moral of the story for me atleast was Make sure you identify your target before letting lose of any size round.



I will know ask the same question That I asked her that night Right before I had her turn the lights on 'are you ready to die' atleast if I can't confirm the target!



Buy the way it did scare the crap out of me to, but only after I started thinking about what would've happened had I squeezed the trigger. It would've probably been really hard to find another girl that would want to date me.And that was hard enough as it was!lol
 
Gross

That's a scarey story for sure. But...it could have been real tragic if it was someone up to no good and there you were with nothing in your hand but ......well you know. Thing is you used your good judgement to override someone else's bad judgement. What happened to knocking?

Now.... About 28 years ago I was with my fiance and we were camped in a isolated campground below a dam early in the year trying to hit the walleye run. There wasn't a sole there but us. We were sitting around the campfire it was really dark out. Three drunken yahoos drove up and were throwing beer bottles at the rip rap along the river not far from us. Sound was carrying real well and I hear one say "Look that guy has a woman with him. They started joking about who was gonna deal with me and who was gonna get first, then second etc. As they approached us sitting by the campfire one of them that looked to be about 22 or 23 years old said something about sharing there beer if I shared my girlfriend with them. I pulled my 357 out of my knapsack and pulled the hammer back, pointed the barrel right between his eyes and told them I had all the company I needed. I then told them to leave the park as I was the jealous type and an expert shot. They left, and fifteen minutes or so we did too. I was so scared I couldn't make spit for an hour. They may have been clowning around but how was I to know. What if I didn't have a gun? My wife never says anything about the gun I have in the camper or my suitcase when we travel. I would recommend a class on when to use a gun. At that time all I knew was how to use one.

fatrap
 
I can relate to that Fatrap.W hen I lived in Florida ,it was just me and my two oldest boys than.I ran a street vending co. of my own. At times I would have one or both of my sons with me .I had made a service call quickly into a location for only a moment leaving my son in the truck .As I was leaving some smart a$$ at the bar made a comment for witch I returned the compliment and kept walking,I could here the stools moving as I went out the door. Not wanting a confrontation with my 8 year old son in the truck I got in my truck to leave but not soon enough.In my rear view mirror 3 guys rounded the back of my truck headed for my door.My only hope of stopping what could have been bad news for them lol was a 32 cal.I kept in the truck.Buy the time the first one stuck his ugly head in my window I literally pushed the snob nose of the barrel up his nose.I then informed him that I was going to blow his f-ing face off his ugly head.The other two slinked back into the bar and the one who's nose was over my barrel spent time telling me and my boy how sorry and wrong he was.

I let him go after a few minutes and left quickly but was quite hyper for a awhile after that . My son has never forgotten that. But I think they understood it.I think I was more angry because my son was in the truck otherwise I would have never gotten in the truck to leave.
 
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