Why don't we simply give the Auto Mfg's a blank check!

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Texas Transplant

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And now we are spending ANOTHER 2 Billion on Cash for Clunkers. This is the text of the message that I sent to my representative.



I do NOT believe that the US Government should be adding more spending, to fuel the purchase of auto's by American. The Cash For Clunkers, should not have been in the stimulus package in the first place. It doesn't need another 2 billion to satisfy the NOW OWNED GOVERNMENT MOTORS (GM), and helping them along. If so, please send me my fair share for my business. A Small Businessman in E. Texas.



Why don't we simply give them a BLANK CHECK and be done with it? Oh yeah, I guess we already have. Enough already.



Too bad the Federal Government doesn't have or support RECALL ELECTIONS! Fed (pardon the pun) up with all of them! :wacko: :wacko: :wacko:



Tex
 
That C for C program is NOT just for GM Tex,.....it's for ALL mfgr's...both foreign and domestic......so peeps can trade in their 88 Chevy OR Ford OR Dodge van with a big V8 and go get a nice little Hundai...OR Kia...OR Camry.



Let's not be biased here.......after all..Obama is all about spreading the wealth around. It's the CHANGE everyone wanted!!;)
 
I fear that when all is said and done, the only thing I'll have left is the paltry bit of "change" in my right front pocket. Our wonderful benevolent government will have taken everything else.



Let's all say it together: Brother, can you spare a dime?
 
Yeah, technically it's for all of the cars avaiable - but we all know the real reason it was offered and will now be funded with more money.



The public is pissed because it was going to 'close', and let's face it - Michigan and the Labor Unions (not just in Michigan) have the Politicians in their back pockets.



I'll state again what I said last year. The Auto Industry should have been left to their own makings. The Government has and had NO BUSINESS getting involved. After all was said and done, they both (GM and Chrysler) went under and survived. Should have happened last year, with no money from the Government. Not popular up in the Auto Mfg. Sector states, but . . .



Tex
 
If that scenerio were allowed to play out,...We would've seen a national depression that would've made 1929 look like a cake walk. Personally speaking...it sucks bad enough around here WITH Gov't help........I wouldn't want to even go down that "other road".
 
Okay. Let me say this another way, and it's not pointed directly at anyone, especially Mac, who is a 'Good Guy'.



While the view in the Auto Industry, for those that are employed within it, may be that this is all a great thing - I'll tell you that from where I sit drawing unemployment and having great difficulty just getting a decent Interview in my profession, it's a pile of crap.



Congress looks bad on this, because the general public that have jobs right now - are using the Government's money to help them buy a new car, and they of course did not estimate how many would take advantage of it. So they are scrambling to have SOMETHING that seems to be working within the Stimulus Package.



Reminds me of the saying we have here down south:



'Even a blind hog, finds an acorn once in awhile'.



Tex
 
I read today that the program will be canceled at midnight tonight. Chris F.:unsure:
 
Point well taken...and I agree that Gov't is getting a little "to involved" in private business,..BUT,..ya gotta agree with the fact that if they HADN'T stepped in,..the total collapse of the entire US manufacturing base would have been beyond catastrophic. It's still bad enough as it is, with sooo much still going over-seas and south of the border. We would be neck deep in a massive depression right now with all 3 domestic mfgr's gone (yes,..even FORD too, because the suppliers would have ALL gone under immediately)...and probably in the midst of a huge civil uprising because of the condition the whole country would be in as a result of NO JOBS for tens of millions of people. There is no easy answer,..and I agree a lot of people are pistoff about the TARP $$ and so-called "bail-outs" even though they are LOANS and WILL be paid back.(Atleast GM WILL pay their's back a lot sooner than the 2015 due-date) As much of a conservative as I usually am,...I'm NOT in favor of an economic collapse just to make a point!! This stimulus plan and massive debt we incurred because of it was the lesser of two evils...we could've said, "Screw big business and let'em go down" which would've brought the WHOLE house down...or we could've chosen "WE'll loan'em the $$ and hope like hell it works, AND hopefully we will get paid back". Obama had to make a decision..."Let the country crash on his watch,....OR take massive evassive action and hope for the best". although I did not vote for the guy,...I gotta hope and believe that he made the right decision this time. A deeply in debt and barely hanging on USA is still better than a "former USA" IMO.
 
Read on Yahoo news that 'US House passes $2 billion to replenish 'cash for clunkers' car purchase program ' don't know if the senate will approve it.



Mac - How would "all 3 domestic mfgr's gone (yes,..even FORD too, because the suppliers would have ALL gone under immediately)..."??? if GM and Chrysler would have gone through the bankruptcy earlier instead of later, wouldn't it have been the same end result? Granted i'm not very knowledgable in this area, but if we have let them go to bankruptcy protection as they have now, sooner then later, and it would have come out the same??



And while I love ya like a step brother, don't buy the whole US economy crash/depression bit, sorry. Its like when everyone said if we deported every illegal immigrant we'd crash/depression, our goverment and business costs would DROP not supporting them, and we'd recover, we always do with US ingenuity. So we bailed out Chrylser and now its owned by a NON US company (Fiat), where profits will go NOT to the US, and long term could Fiat move even more production out of the US?? Same was said when textile manufacturing went overseas, same when IT support/services starting going overseas, we as a country continue to reinvent ourselves and will.



Trep

 
I understand why they are trying to prime the pump, but they are always priming this from the bottom up. Who runs $3500 cars at 18MPG or less? And why are we incenting people that apparently can't afford to buy a decent car anyhow to take on payments? And why are we going to crush perfectly good cars that still have value? I drive a '98 4Runner, and I have about the oldest car of anyone I know. And it's worth something in this range, so this program won't help me. I'm getting sick and tired of seeing all the programs out there that help everyone EXCEPT me. I'm sending my dam* tea bag to my senator and congressman (the second who is a clueless nutcase). I pay enough taxes for 2 people, so where's my help? I'm tired of this crap.
 
Mac - I simply will agree to disagree with you your comment:



the total collapse of the entire US manufacturing base would have been beyond catastrophic



That is simply not at all factual or accurate, and is not widely shared by anyone outside of the Automobile Industry. It was a cry taken on by the auto industry, to get more money - IMHO. Nothing more, nothing less. The sky is falling, the sky is falling.



Similar type of comments that have been made over and over again by groups/organizations/companies that want a handout by the government. It's called 'free enterprise'. You are free to succeed, and you are also 'free to fail'. GM knew what it would take to get the money from their new friends in Washington to get what they wanted and kept up the drumbeat until they got it.



I'm going fishing.



Tex
 
I would prefer the we not 'print more money' for these programs. It is a big problem we will face (e.g. deflation of the dollar, inflation of prices). If anyone stops to think about it, for all these 'programs' someone needs to pay for it. The only way to have managed thru this quickly and with the least pain would have been tax cuts. Bottomline, let consumers have more of OUR income to spend as we wish and it flows around the economy. It pays back multiple times over....I get a tax cut, I buy your stuff, you make a profit (and pay some taxes), your profit allows you to buy stuff from the next guy and he makes a profit which allows him to buy some stuff....it's really not that hard to understand economics. Yes, "trickle down" works!
 
I have read this through 3 or 4 times and some of the things not included are. The cars are scrapped for material, not parts. It takes used cars and parts off of the market. This means you may have to replace your older car even if you don't want to? This puts people out of work also. Let them pay the price for a change and Vote them all out..



BF
 
I will be keeping my 1990, 14 mpg, Chevy clunker. It tows and drives better than the plastic looking trucks manufactured these days. Who needs 20 inch rims and heated leather seats to get the lake or back in the woods? By the way Barry, I know your post wasn't directed at everyone, but I earn enough to drive whatever I want, I just choose not to.
 
+1 for eric! Part of the problem actually is GREED. However, it's not the greed of the big corporations who actually employ people and create wealth (which is NOT evil!). The greed is in the consumers who over extend themselves and buy those 'over the top' 'wants'. I'm all for free markets and success but people need to take personal responsibility for their actions. NOT BAILOUTS.
 
I was at the Ford dealership last week getting new rear brake pads on my '01 F150 SuperCrew (98,700 miles at that time), so I passed the time looking at the new stuff. They had a black '09 Lariat SuperCrew that was loaded with everything, including heated/cooled front seats, 20 inch rims, and a bunchof other bells & whistles. I looked at the sticker price which was in the low $40k range. Hanging on the rear view mirrow was a small sign that basically stated it could be purchased within the realm of the cash for clunkers program. Beautiful truck, but I do not want anymore truck payments, plus I like my '01. :)
 
It doesn't matter anymore anyway...we'll never know all the "what if's" if the Big 3 were allowed to go under...luckily..they won't now but it's up to the consumers to be the final judges!! If they like the new stuff and buy it,..we will make a huge comeback and continue to prosper,...if they don't buy it,..the industry dies. Simple economics.



Sooner or later I'll be able to say,.."SEE...I toldya we'd kickass again!!"...OR sooner or later you'll be able to say,.."SEE...I told you'd all fail anyway" Time will tell who was right. And whether or not you think the economy and country would survive without an auto industry, the manuf. base and all the other jobs it creates...that's not a scenario I want to experience....EVER.....and I hope you and your kids don't have to either!



BTW Trep,....as far as I know,..we never deported all the illegal immagrants,..infact those "leaders" in DC would rather give them amnesty, and ALL the same health and retirement bennies, (or welfare and who knows what other kind of subsides) free education, etc. and YOU will have to pay for it. (Press one for english when you call to express your gratitude) Oh,...and Chrysler paid back all of the gov't loans before Fiat bought them. Tex,..GM's new friends in Washington?? I think the UAW had a lot more to do with getting that $$, than the Bd. of Directors......correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the UAW now owns 17% of the company?? The "Management" owns ZERO! Who's friends with who??:blink:



Carry on;)



 
Eric, you don't need this program to go buy a car if you need or want one, nor do I. I bet you wouldn't part with your truck for $3500, nor would I mine. This was not intended to put down anyone's cars. Where I live most people drive pretty darn good cars, and I'm the one with the clunker. But I still LIKE and drive my clunker daily.
 
I look at this in this way. The whole chas for clunkers program if note fair. The goverment is trying to make sure the tax payers incvestment does not go under and I can understand that. Now what I would have liked to see was the goverment not pick a certian industry (auto)to give a insentave to buy it's product but just give everybody a $4500 check (people who pay taxs) and let them spend it in any fashon they want. I would feal real bad if I just bought a car a few month go and then the goverment (with my tax dollars) give out checks to buys to buy the same car I just purcahsed. Not realy fair. The company that I work for is slow in sales and I'm sure if the coverment gave our customers cash toward the product we would sell more too.



Dan
 
The real problem with the cash for clunkers from my point of view, is that it simply has people buying cars that have already been manufactured. And with most of the Mfg's re-tooling and getting ready for next year, it really doesn't 'stoke the manufacturing fires' either.



That, and the number of new auto's that are in the program (whatever number that is), is a very small percentage of what a mfg makes each year.



I'm like Bluefrog - you want to stimulate the economy, send us ALL a check and not just SOME of us.



Tex
 
That's cool, Berry, no harm done. The best part about my clunker is when you pop the hood the "Made in America" stamps on the parts are actually in English. My buddies new trucks come standard with a Spanish to English dictionary in the glove box.:D
 
Tex,



The economy would have crashed with over 3 million people out of work within a week.



And trust me I (and most of the people in manufacturing states, not just automotive) know what its like to be out of work for an extended period of time.



BEFORE all this bankrupcy talk I posted many times, as did mac, about looking at domestic cars. The future of our country depended. This was when profits were diminishing well before any loans to the autos.



The US Govt actually is to blame as much as the domestic autos for being too fat. In no other country is the auto industry given a free ride into the marketplace. A Chevy/Ford/Chrysler in any other country outside of N America is taxed when imported to allow "fair" comeptition for homegrown manufacturing. Simple tarrifs to help our own SHOULD be in place now and certainly should have been in place 30 uears ago.



Anyway, enough of all this. Ford showed a profit, GM will do so soon and Chrysler soon after. And Chrysler is only 40% owned by Fiat.



Just take a look at domestic autos before you make your next purchase. Forget everything you knew about the Big 3 from the 70's and 80's. Detroit is putting out some quality vehicles and like I said before....if your neighbor/relative owned a general store would you do all of your shopping at WalMart or would you make some of your purchases (or all of them) from you neighbor/relative to help them out, keep them in business and support your local economy? I used to think people in this country believed in this country and cared about our own, but I dont so much anymore.
 
This oughta frost yer stones!! And no,..the author is NOT related to me....

Talk about a hypocritical gov't,....they put every restriction under the sun on the domestic mfgr's...then let the foreign mfgrs off scott free......NICE!!



Why Are German Automakers Exempt from US CO2 Standards?

autoblog.com

By John McElroy

July 30, 2009





If you've ever wondered why the American automakers have such a hard time competing in their home market, all you have to do is look at the latest move from the American government. It's going to exempt the worst gas-guzzling European luxury cars from having to meet U.S. CO2 standards. Companies like Mercedes, BMW, and Porsche can continue to sell cars that don't meet those standards, all with the gentle blessing of generous Uncle Sam.



Do you think for a second that the American government would ever let GM, Ford or Chrysler sell vehicles that pump out more greenhouse gases than the law allows? No, never.



The cars getting this exemption represent some of the most profitable products for the companies that make them. Cars like the Mercedes S600 or BMW M6 which are rated at 13 miles per gallon (18 l/100km), or Porsche Cayenne Turbo S which is rated at 14 mpg.



These are "halo" cars for these brands. They help make these brands aspirational. And they help them sell all the other cars in their lineups. While these are the kinds of cars that are near and dear to the hearts of all enthusiasts, is it fair to grant them CO2 exemptions?



These emission standards only apply to ordinary citizens, not the rich.



No, it's blatantly unfair on two levels. First off, it's unfair to American automakers (and Japanese and Korean) who cannot get this kind of exemption. As Cadillac and Lincoln continue to try and claw their way back to the top of the luxury segment there's no way they can effectively compete if they have to meet the law and their European competitors do not. Second, the cars that are getting these exemptions are only within the reach of a fairly wealthy clientele. In other words, these emission standards only apply to ordinary citizens, not the rich.



The federal government justifies these exemptions by saying it doesn't involve very many cars, and they will be in effect for only four years. Specifically, the exemption applies to automakers who sell fewer than 400,000 cars annually in the American market. Some excuse. This still exempts to about a quarter of the cars that they sell in the U.S., and it ignores the fact that BMW and Mercedes each sell well over a million vehicles on a global basis.



California is also granting CO2 exemptions to these companies, but it applies to all the vehicles they sell and will be in effect for the next seven years. Remember, this comes from the state that loudly proclaimed it was finally going to force Detroit to do something about CO2 emissions. Can you imagine the uproar if GM, Ford and Chrysler asked California for the same exemptions?



None of this makes any sense to me. It's not as if we're talking about small, low-volume automakers who are struggling to survive and need more time to figure out how to develop new technology to meet these CO2 regulations. With Mercedes, BMW and Porsche we're talking about some of the most powerful and technologically advanced automakers in the business.



Clearly the German automakers are quite adept at lobbying American politicians. In Washington this exemption is referred to as "the German Provision." No doubt their dealers played a key role in getting such special treatment. Yet I can't blame them for looking out for their own interests.



What I find so troubling in all this is that special dispensation is being granted by the American government to foreign automakers to ensure that the jet set can keep their toys.









Nice,....THANKS Obama!!! Tie your own country's mfgr's hands at every opportunity,..then let the competition do as they please.....and you're looking out for US!!??:angry::angry:
 
Mac - I didn't word mine completely right - No we didn't (but should have) deported all 20million+ illegals last year, but I don't beleive we'd have had a completely collapsed economy, i would see a short term drop if we did deport them all, then all the unemployement in the US would drop to below 1% as we all filled those roles...



Mini / Mac - we can agree to disagree, I don't see how "The economy would have crashed with over 3 million people out of work within a week."?? GM would NOT have gone under, 3m+ would not have been fired/layed off, it would have gone like it did into reorg bankruptcy, and keep everyone employeed with payroll being the primary focus of $$ during a bankruptcy reorg (Creditors get on hold/in line behind employees)...



At least from my myopic view down south.
 
Come up here where the unemployment rate is STILL 25% (even WITH gov't assistance) and you will have a MUCH better idea of how deeply and widespread the roots are. It's a helluva lot bigger of a problem than you think....or that you see from down there!



And deporting 20 million illegals that don't pay taxes?? Geez,..the money we saved on not paying for their incarceration, crimes, healthcare and education alone, would pay for 100,000 luxury buses to send them back in!!:eek:;)
 
I'm with Trep, saying that 3mm people would have been out of work in one week, is another in a long line of 'stories' trying to scare the government and others into giving them money. 'The Sky is Falling' syndrome. Bottom line is, they went bankrupt some 5-8 months later than they should have. They could have done the SAME THING back in Oct/Nov, but maybe they would not have gotten the deal that they did, and they certainly wouldn't have gotten all that 'money' from Congress.



Tex
 
Everyone employed????



GM is HALF the size it was. Did it need to happen? Probably, but not to the extent it has.



The major suppliers here in town (and we have the majority of them) are either in bankrupcy or just closed the doors leaving people with nowhere to turn.



When GM doesnt order parts AND Chrysler doesnt order parts, suppliers close and guess what? Ford cant get any parts. Sure someone will swoop in, buy the assets and make subpar parts until they can get them offshored. While they are making teh parts the wages are cut, then stores and small business suffers and close.



One in eight jobs in this country is auto related. Take those away and you will see how fast it "trickles" down....Look to any city that had an auto or manufacturing plant....all dead. Ghost towns.



But yet NO ONE answers....would you buy from your relative or neighbor that had a store that was a little more expensive OR would you go to Walmart?



God Bless US All.
 
Trep,..had GM gone into Chapter 11 w/NO gov't loans like everyone says they "should have anyway"...is nuts...we would not have kept 3mill people working.....we would have gone into liquidation and there would be no more GM. Thre was no funding available from banks or you can bet we would've gone that route BEFORE we went to Obama Tax and Loans, inc.

Even with Gov't assistance we only have 18 mos. to make a profit or we're gone anyway!!

This country is no where near out of the woods yet,...despite the medias best efforts to spin their BS otherwise.



Tex,...weren't you working in the IT field on an Auto account before you got downsized??? Welcome to the trickle down affect!! Trust us,...you DO NOT want to see it get worse!!
 
Yes Mac, I was. However, my getting laid off had NOTHING to do with the Economy. HP bought EDS and my department was forced to lay off 80 (out of 440) people on December 1st. If you were not on an assignment (I had a new one, but it didn't start till 12/8), you got the axe. The Acct. Exec. from the account where I finished up my work (end of assignment) tried to bring me back to work for him when he found out. Bean Counters said absolutely not.



I don't want to see anyone get laid off that is doing a good job - regardless of Industry. But GM and Chrysler got themselves into the sad situation they each were in, and couldn't or wouldn't, get themselves out of it.



And no, I don't want to see it get worse, but right now, it ain't getting better, either.



Tex
 
Yes GM and Chrysler were partly to blame for getting themselves into the position they were in, but the fact that sales for the non-domestics were a HUGE part of it.



The US Govt let them in on par with copaies we have (had) here. Let them copy our methodology and yes in cases improve it. BUT MANY MANY factors have lent themselves to the situation of manufacturing (or lack thereof) in this country.



And STILL no answers to if you would help out your neighbor or relative by sending business there way as opposed to buying from someone else. I guess it's just me that feels that is (or should be) an intregal part of the decision making process on a purchase or purchases.....
 
I spend a HELLUVA lot more $$$ at KD's than I do at BPS!! (and that's no BS!!);) Why?? Easy,...because he's 2 miles from my house, vs. 15+,.AND he gives me a nice discount on everything in his store (Even Archery equipt and ammo,...neither of which I get pro-staff pricing from BPS)..I have no problem helpin' a local brutha out...he does the same for me!!;)



 
Mini,



Yes, I do shop at local buinesses when I can. I shop at Walmart for items not available locally. My town in Vermont is not exactly a major metro area.



A few examples:



I bought my garden tractor and all accessories from a mom and pop equipment shop owned by a very nice couple. Purchase was over $10,000. They live nearby, so when my tractor needed service, they stopped by, put it on their flatback and put it back in my garage when finished. I would stop by and pay after work. When I needed a chainsaw last year I bought from them. Home Depot had same saw at same price but no personal service. I even buy my Kohler oil filters and hydro filters there. Next tractor will be from them too. Also a nice place to chit chat about hunting and stuff!



I bought a bow (archery type) quite a few years back from a family run archery shop. My kids then got into archery and joined the JOAD program (Junior Olympic Archery Development). They are on the traveling road team now. Both became instructors. My son works weekends setting up bows and stuff when he's not practicing on the range. All archery stuff purchased by me and my kids are at that archery shop. We have spent thousands there.



On a smaller scale, I buy my dogfood from one of two local stores. One is a small pet place owned locally and not a chain. The other place is a seed and feed store owned locally. I buy based on availablity at the time.



Buzz works part-time at local hunting/fishing/gas station and I buy from them. If Neeley had his shop near me, I'd buy from him too.
 
Don't feel too bad Mac. Ken will tell ya I spend too much there also, and he's more than a couple miles from me! :lol:



My family hasn't shopped at a Walmart in YEARS. It's a personal choice that I have yet to regret and don't see how I ever will. I've been very blessed to have made a comfortable life for my family, burning through several passports at a young age to prosper my American based manufacturing business. There just seems to be little care from many where their efforts actually go in supporting a foreign based company or country, in many cases anti-American in philosophy or by decree. When we help our rivals, we hurt ourselves. It's pretty simple, no matter how many try to spin their actions to justify their toil and allegiance in the workplace. Until people make the conscious effort to support, protect, and defend their own American way of life, I feel nothing will change, just become worse. :(:wacko::unsure::angry:



If it does, I'm comfy at 150yds, 200 without much wind. :D If I owned any guns, that is. :rolleyes: :lol:
 
Follow up to what's happening these days at EDS (my former employer). This article broke yesterday, and was on the local NBC Affiliate. I've double checked with friends that are still there, and MOST OF THEM will all get the same thing.



Another 20% salary reduction on 9/1/09; followed by another 10% on 9/1/10. HP is not 'your brothers keeper' - anymore. Even though un-employed, really glad that I'm not there anymore. Life goes on.



Tex
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32296912
 
"There just seems to be little care from many where their efforts actually go in supporting a foreign based company or country, in many cases anti-American in philosophy or by decree. When we help our rivals, we hurt ourselves. It's pretty simple, no matter how many try to spin their actions to justify their toil and allegiance in the workplace. Until people make the conscious effort to support, protect, and defend their own American way of life, I feel nothing will change, just become worse." - Dan J.



Quote of the year!
 
Mini - I guess it depends on how you define "you would help out your neighbor or relative by sending business there way as opposed to buying from someone else. "



I buy lures from the local Ace Hardware 'cause one of our fishing club's guys works there and started stocking fishing stuff; I have my boat worked on by a local 20+ yearold marina; I have my lawn mower repaired/tuned by a local guy from the club...but I also shop a lot at walmart, which not only supports a lot of the local folks in our town short/long term, but also helps my widowed mother-n-law who worked for the Walton family in OK for years (Sam's Sister's family) who gave lots of Walmart Stock to their employees over the years, so if walmart goes out of business so does my mother-n-law who is surviving on Social Security and dividends(by the way which is an AMAZING US success story from the ground up by Sam Walton).



Cars are by definition a bit of a different story as they are the 2nd most expensive purchase you make (other then your house), unless you are one of the big dogs with a $30k+ boat. If your brother/sister bought/opened a Nissan or Toyota dealer because your town already had a GM or Ford dealer (can't count Chyrsler as with the exception of a small time in the last 12 months they have been a German company since Daimler bought them), would you tell all of your friends/family NOT to buy from him? If we put every Non-GM or Non-Ford dealer out of business who's gonna take care of those 100'000s of out of work americans? What if China had done a deal with Nissan or Toyota instead of GM on the mainland, so Buick would not have had an "in" and been profitable in China?



And yes I agree if a country we do business with puts tax/tarriffs on our goods in theory we should put a similar tax/tarriff on their like goods coming into the US. Obviously the politicians and lobbiests haven't followed that base model (and yes I know UAW and GM/Ford have HUGE lobbiest as well that get taxes/laws/tarriffs in place that help them vs. others...).



Now on the boat, how many of you drive only American made, american sourced parts boats? Does it exist? Only running Mercury Motors? Not running Yammies? Suzukis?...???



So I don't see how it can be so black and white Mini.
 

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