Membership Dues.

[Staci Matheis]

I've been thinking about this for a long time.....



I think it's time that Rich was rewarded for all his past and future efforts in putting this site together. Advertising revenue has obviously not been forthcoming.



I'd like to suggest that Rich charge us something like $9.99 per year Membership Dues.



Membership would bring with it the priviledge of posting anywhere on the site; Swap & Sell alone would be worth this to some of us.



Members would also have their library space. Pictures and the like stored can be used on this site as well as entering the URL on any other site when you want to display an item.



Without Membership, you could access the site and read but not post.



I think this is the best boat/fishing site on the web; my MasterCard is ready! Since BJ, Travis and Josh aren't likely to have credit/debit cards of their own, I'd be happy to pay their dues as a "thanks" for all they've contributed!



me!

 

[Larry Harp]

I'm okay with it. Certianly a topic worthy of discussion.



BTW....don't worry too much about the young guys. Consider BJ owns his own 882. What's in your driveway. ;>) I'm sure they can come up with 84 cents a month. If not I'm sure we could work in some pro bono members. Perhaps they could sweep up around the place.



Harpo



Harpo

 

[Al Greco]

I don't have a problem contributing. $9.95 a year is real cheap for everything I've learned on this site. Let Rich decide if this is something he wants to do or not. If he entertains it my 10 bucks will be on it's way.

 

[Scott Hammer TOXIC]

Is there a need? Other than Staci's mothering instinct? If Rich needed membership due then he would ask. BFHP allows you to post without being a member. My point being, I would make it voluntary. As soon as you charge for something you get people who expect something in return. And sitting around BS'ing with this bunch of Yahoos just don't cut it!!LOL!!



TOXIC

 

[TrepMan]

I agree with Tox, this topic has been brought up before and each time Rich as stated that NO he does not want or need funding from this site. He has stated in the past that this is his guinee pig site.



I wouldn't even make it voluntary, if Rich wanted/needed the funds he would ask the board or tell us.



Sorry Staci, I think you're off base on this one.

 

[TOMMY RICH]

What y'all tryin' to do...Break-Up a "poor boy" like me?

 

[Bob G.]

me!,



Great idea.....feel free to pay my dues too!!! LOL!!!



Bob G.

 

[Staci Matheis]

Typical lifespan of a guinea pig is 3 to 6 years.

 

[Rich D]

If Rich wants to charge membership, I would be happy to pay. I think, however, we need to leave that decision up to him.



Rich D

 

[Michael Snow]

ABSOLUTELY NOT!



Staci, you just touched on a VERY sore subject with me. I'm SICK of certain sites pimping for donations.



On one, you get sent into pop-up hades if you don't pay. You can't register a handle without paying. You can't upload pics without paying.



On another, the admin charges $100/month for ads. There are probably 10-12 ads. He then has the NERVE to ask for donations and some of his buddies post for him asking to put more money in the kitty.



On one down here in Texas, they started selling "supporting memberships". Again, several ads on the site, giving people pretty little avatars next to their names to try to guilt the non-payers into paying.



Now I'm going to explain how this little thing works. You rent a server and bandwidth. For under $150/month, you can get more server and bandwidth than any of the aforementioned sites could use in a month. The rest is profit. Nothing wrong with making a buck. However, the content on these sites is written by others, so in effect, the website is charging you for access to the other users.



NTOWS is different in that Rich writes the software himself. Rich also doesn't push ads all over the place (and ads on the page aren't a problem -- it's when ads ARE the page).



If NTOWS ever becomes so much of a burden that Rich wants to shut it down for whatever reason, I will GLADLY put it on my server and run it from there.



I am not suggesting that if YOU wish to send Rich some money, feel free. But neither he nor you should try to guilt us into doing so (and that is how it's done on other sites).



The free and useful exchange of information is always inhibited by money.

 

[Staci Matheis]

You miss my intention, Mike.....



Rich runs a business; this is part of it.

Businesses are run for a profit.

There are two ads producing about $50 a month total.

No pop-ups.



Rich started this site kind of as a whim.

It was in line with one of his current outside interests.

Outside interests change.



How long would you continue to run a site from a business prospective if it produced no income for you?



I am NOT suggesting we make donations.



I am asking if we would be WILLING to stick around if he wanted to turn it into a profit making business venture.







Otherwise..... As his interests change.....

 

[Mark Hofman]

I have to agree with Trep. This kind of topic has been raised before. It's a thoughtful gesture, and I'm sure Rich appreciates the willingness to do whatever it takes to keep this site up and running.



But until Rich himself says it's needed AND that he WANTS our help, we should let him enjoy this for what it is: his very generous gift to an online community of fishing enthusiasts. We shouldn't rob him of the joy that (for the most part) he must get out of doing it for all of us. I guess what I'm saying is that we may have to ask the question: is this a business venture, or a philanthropic one?



If the latter, what would be more effective than money would be a simple, personal e-mail to Rich saying "THANK YOU!" And even more effective would be having the opportunity to say it to him face-to-face.

 

[Rich Stern]

Staci, as always, I appreciate the thought and concern, but this site will remain free to members and guests.



I am a strong believer in the sponsorship model. Content is free for members, sponsors pay for tasteful (not overwhelming) advertising and sales opportunities, and the site benefits from whatever sponsor fees it generates. Hopefully, everybody gets what they need in this model.



Mike, a couple of points I think you are wrong about. While this site could be served by inexpensive hardware and software, it isn't, which is why you rarely see downtime. The site is hosted in a very high end data center, with redundant comptuting, network and power hardware, nightly backups, proactive performance tuning, all directly supported by Microsoft certified engineers. The database is Microsoft SQL Server. This is not your average $99/month server rental setup. The reason for this high end setup is that I have mission critical applications for some of my customers running in the same data center on the same platforms. NTOWS benefits from the excess capacity I happen to have in that environment. And because I do rent and administer three other servers in other "low cost" data centers, I can also say that the cost of the server is small in comparison to the time and experitise required to run it right. And, unless you have about $5000 worth of licenses from Microsoft, my software won't work on your server. At least not legally.



Next, the "rest is profit" comment: What estimate should we use to calculate the cost of answering email on Sunday afternoon, or the time spent building a features? If you think the sole cost of this site is the data center hardware, I think you are 180 degrees off. I think the hardware is the least expensive component of trying to successfully publish a site like this.



As to other sites and how they charge: Each site's business model is their business. I don't think I'm in a position to say what is right or wrong with their model. It's based on their issues, which I don't know.



Hey, by the way, later today I will be announcing a new site sponsor!

 

[Scott Hammer TOXIC]

TOXIC's Breath mints????

 

[Larry Harp]

Heck, THAT was worth a buck right there!!



Thanks Rich.



Harpo

 

[Staci Matheis]

Heck..... If Rich were an Attorney..... There's about $350 worth of billable time right there Rich put into writing a response!

 

[Michael Snow]

Rich, my point isn't about YOUR setup. My point is about what's actually required to run a website in general. For those sites that are absolutely nothing but message boards, there's the installation of the software, periodic upgrades and hardware performance monitoring.



I have no quarrels with running a website as a business. I just want the truth expressed. I don't think the owner of the website should spend 6 months down in Florida and then whine about how he's losing money on the site.



A business has far more things to worry abou than a hobby site does. For a hobby site, content doesn't have to be monitored with an iron fist (to ensure no current, past, or potential sponsor is spoken of negatively) and to ensure that no one who isn't a sponsor has any mention of their products, etc.



As much as I hate to admit it, Al Shields proved that software just isn't that important. He swapped software products, lost the majority of his data, and his site barely missed a beat. The simple act of having to rejoin really made me think he'd shot himself in the foot.



No, I couldn't (and wouldn't want to) run the software you do. I'm not a programmer, but I am an NT admin. My NT license is paid for, so no issues there. To me, phpbb puts out a quality, FREE product that does everything within reason that I need it to.



I'm not knocking you, your site, or your software. If I didn't like any or all of the three, I wouldn't be here. I'm saying if all of the folks here suddenly find themselves without an online place to chat about Tracker/Nitro products (and everything else under the sun), I'd gladly create a place where they could. That's not an attempt to undercut you on "price". You've hinted about pulling the plug in the past, and if you ever do decide to, I'd want to take the domain name over if you'd allow it. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Rich Stern]

"I have no quarrels with running a website as a business. I just want the truth expressed. I don't think the owner of the website should spend 6 months down in Florida and then whine about how he's losing money on the site."



Mike, that's one of the dangerous statements that can be summed as 'This is how I judge your life from inside my shoes.' I don't like to go there.



You running MS SQL Server on your machine?

 

[Michael Snow]

Nope, mysql.



Rich, as a firm Republican, maybe the statement would be better... "don't ask me for money and I won't evaluate how much you make". I don't care how much money anyone makes, as long as they aren't asking me for mine. At that point, it's time to look at whether the person truly has tried to "do for themselves".



We both know how accounting works. If I billed the time I spend on my site and other sites, as well as the time I spend fishing as "research time", at my "hourly rate" for my job, you can bet your bottom nickel that I could "show" a loss.



I'm pretty sure you understand that my comments aren't directed toward or about you... this has been something "eating at me" for several weeks and Staci just happened to ask the wrong question at the wrong time.

 

[Staci Matheis]

.....i have a habit of doing that.....

 

[Greg Meyer]

Yup, Staci... just like that time on Dec 8, 1941 when you (somewhat prematurely) snorkeled into Tokyo Bay and suggested to the Japanese that they ought to surrender... You had the right idea...just the wrong timing!

 

[Staci Matheis]

yeah..... but..... it sure got them laughing!

 

[Rich Stern]

Mike, I'm not taking any of this personally. You shouldn't either. We just don't see eye-to-eye when it comes to figuring what a site costs to make it successful, and how that might vary greatly based on the issues of the publisher.



I am not concerned with bogus time accounting such as fishing leisure time counted toward a site's cost. I'm talking about the real costs. They are substantial if a site is going to succeed.

 

[JR F]

Great site Rich...Thank You...JR

 

[Carlos Hathcock III]

JKR email me at work!!!!!



Carlos