What a "Knock-Out"

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Andrew Zuber

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Sure...Sure...

It was just "knock-out" gas...

Yikes!!!

Good intentions gone bad???

115 dead...



az
 
People in positions of authority must sometimes make very difficult decissions..... I applaud their courage..... I pray for those who died..... And that the Decission Makers may have peace in the knowledge that they did their very best.



God Bless!

me!
 
I was in the woods all weekend. I just caught the tail end of this in Russia right? Some chez rebels, but I didn't know that many died. How many were hostages?
 
Terrorists CANNOT be allowed to WIN,...REGARDLESS of the cost!!!.....God forbid I or my family,...or any of us for that matter should EVER be in a position to be held "hostage" by some terrorists,...BUT,..I'd rather die in a rescue attempt gone bad, then to see our Gov't "give-in" and give those losers ANY chance of victory or escape!!

I would NOT be a good hostage!!....

 
117 dead...115 from the gas...

they say around 50 were 'hostage takers'...



az
 
CNN reported "50 terrorists demanding Russia pull its troops out of Chechnya took hostage 800 people last Wednesday."



Interesting from my reading is the 50 terrorist were shot AFTER the gas put them down, not the way the US would do it but if they started killing hostages, it will definetly DETER future terrorists from trying something in Russia.



Now the fact that over 100 innocent victim seem to be killed by the gas, that's a tough sell!
http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/10/28/moscow.gas/index.html
 
Maybe Russia will get the message that terrorism is something everyone needs to fight. Personally, I'm not too upset that the hostage takers ended up with 9mm Makarov headaches.



And I'm with Mini. I told my wife that if I was ever taken hostage by a terrorist who demanded something in exchange for my life, that she should instruct the S.W.A.T or Delta team to shoot first and ask questions later. Never, ever give a terrorist what they want. They'll only come back to try it again. Take 'em down or take 'em out. Those are the only two options.



What other choice did Russia have? Either they took the risk that the gas would do damage, or the risk that the terrorists would execute or blow up hostages if a hostage rescue team attempted an assault.
 
I think it was an excellent choice...on the action they took, that is...

just not sure about they're choice of gas...



az

 
If anyone has ever seen the clip of hte russian soldier beheaded by the Chech, then they would certainly say 'spray and pray'. That's the most horrific thing I've seen, and no terrorist should be allowed to live once he has taken any terror action................sa
 
For those of us who have spent significant time over seas, terrorist threats where a way of life that you dealt with every day. You just became more aware of your surroundings and whats going on around you. Terrorist have one goal in life, to strike fear and intimidation into the minds of the ordinary individual so that you might control that individuals life. Saddam does it well with his people as well as president Kim of North Korea, along with Fidel and a host of other dictators. Control is the name of the game. The Russians saved themselfs millions of dollars by killing them rather than like the us capturing them, then spending millions of dollars to analyze, feed and house them for the rest of their lifes. Just my 02 cents.
 
Don't get me wrong, i 100% agree that the terrorists should have been killed. My point was the innocent killing of the 100 or so civilians that were also posioned by the gas! Once again, not the ideal way to deal with the threat (and I agree that we in the US coddle criminal in our prison system instead of quick death to those whom admit or were proven with out a shadow of doubt (no 20 year appeals, and why have a death penalty in states that NEVER use it?). But if the US had done the same thing where 100 non-terrorists were killed there would be he$$ to pay from the UN and others.



 
I hate to put it so bluntly..... But.....



Those who were taken hostage were as good as dead from the start. The action taken by the Government saved the lives of most of them.



Who are we to sit back, after the fact, and judge the actions taken and methods used by those whose countrymen's lives were at stake?



me.
 
I don't necessarily dis-agree with you Scott, but think about it in the current political lanscape (not saying it's right mind you). If this had happened in St. Louis and it was your mother/sister/father/brother in the theater and the US Special Forces did the same thing, and killed your family and then would not release information about the type/kind of gas used so that the hospitals and emergency staff on the scene could provide anitidotes/nutrualizers to those who did not die immediately?



Did the Russions act quickly and with reason to believe the terrorists would kill all/most of the hostages - I believe YES! Did they do what they thought was the right thing and would send a strong message to other terrorist - YES!



But, we don't live in Russia. Our political system is different, and yes they are trying to catch up with our democratic republic ideals, but you think Bush has been beaten up in the press and by other officials for not doing enough to stop 9-11 (about to be EX-Representative Cynthia McKinney for one) they would ROAST him alive if the US did this on US soil.



So, my only point is think about it in light of our system, our laws and our views in the US. Would you have wanted the US to do the same thing, with the same veil of secrecy around the specific compond?



Oh, and don't forget the UN would be ALL OVER the US, not that I have any use for that organization anymore!



OK stepping down from my political soapbox, thanks for listening guys!
 
I heard it stated best last night, "it was a good idea, poorly executed"
 
I have to believe that our SWAT and Special Ops teams would've done a MUCH better job than the Russian's. I certainly can't disagree with the need to take out the badguys,..and the hostages were deffinetely in a BAD situation.....but regardless,....our Teams train much harder,...they have much better equipment, and we practice,..practice,..and practice for such an event!

I think if that same scenario were to happen here,..there would be a LOT fewer casualties..atleast as far as the "hostages" are concerned.....I think we would've done something different besides gas the entire place...especially with that lethal stuff...geez..that's a little "extreme" i think......who know's though..hind site is always 20/20. BUT,.atleast the bad guys LOST!!! Too bad so many hostages did too,...but "mission accomplished!!"

just my .02!!

Mac
 
My opinion is that the choice to use knock-out gas was based on a couple of variables that made any other tactic more risky.



First, there were women terrorists with explosives strapped to their waists. If a tactical team enters the room, at the first flash-bang or head shot, one or more of those women would have tripped the detonator and blown up everyone around them.



Second, the use of the knock out agent (whether it was narcotic-based or chemical weapons based) would have worked to disorient any terrorist with a gun and made it more difficult for them to aim and shoot hostages or the rescue team. In a room full of hundreds of people, just using flash-bangs with a tactical entry ran the risk of terrorists (probably suicidal ones at that) putting rounds into as many hostages as they could before getting shot themselves, or detonating the mines they had scattered around.



The use of explosives by the terrorists changed the dynamic of the situation. If they had guns only, then a straight tactcial entry with a shoot-em-up approach might have saved more innocent lives. But I can't help but think that, on that first bang or pop, the terrorists would've detonated their bombs and mines, killing nearly everyone involved.



It was an ugly chice the Russians had to make. They had 20 Million people killed in World War II; to them a couple of hundred civilian fatalities isn't much compared to halting this kind of stuff from happening again. I think they sent a message: Do this and we'll kill our own people rather than give in to your demands, and we'll cap any of your people who are involved. Zero chance of success for the terrorist.



In Beruit in the '80s, Hezbollah took a Russian diplomat hostage. The KGB went out and found a mid-level Hezbollah leader. They executed him, cut him up and sent him back in a box. Hezbollah released the diplomat. Sometimes the Russians know exactly what they're doing.
 
now if we could just get them to stop playing with nuclear torpedoes!!..LOL You're right Mo....we don't know all the facts and probably never will....they don't have to deal with the liberal media like we do!! over there NYET, means NYET!!! ahahaha
 
I consider it to be completely unfair and unrealistic for us to try to impose our systems of values and government on peoples of other nations.



This was their decission to make; not ours.



Having said that, I do fully support the Soviets in their decissions and actions; including their reluctance to disclose the nature of the gas they used. You never know when they - or we - might be in the same situation again. Think of the consequences if we tried to use the same gas and the results if the terrorists knew enough in advance to have made preparations for it.....



God bless those who gave their lives.

God bless those who made courageous decissions.



me.
 

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