The NIU Shooting hit close to home...

[Greg Meyer]

No, noone in my immediate family was injured or killed... But, my son attended NIU for seven years... four years in undergraduate and then three years in the Law School. He has stayed in the community and he now works for a law firm there.



Apparently, the "shooter" attended NIU until last Summer. He was in the immediate semester a graduate student at UIC (University of Illinois at Chicago) in the school of Social Work. My oldest daughter is also a graduate student there in the School of Social Work. My youngest daughter starts in the graduate program there this May.



One of my daughter's closest friends younger brother lost his roommate to the shooter's insanity. He was one of the young men killed.



I am so sad and angry that has happened. My son, a very active member of student government his whole tenure at NIU was a member of a campus advisory council appointed after the Viginia Tech shootings to analyze and suggest security measures. (I do not want to create a debate here about gun control, only comment about one aspect, and then move on...)



My son and another student (NIU is located in Dekalb County a fairly rural area of Illinois, still) both were strong voices for the proposition that the (and Geraldo is wrong... as he described them as overweight, etc.), as excellent as they truly are, the Campus Police (their Chief is a great cop) cannot protect the students from this kind of maniac. They strongly objected to Illinois' current stance prohibiting concealed carry by anyone...an absolute ban.



My point is what will it take for the politicians in Illinois and the public to realize that "we" the people are responsible for our own safety. Think about Virginia Tech, and now NIU. If there had been just one or two armed students in those settings, how many innocent lives would have been saved? I am angry that these young men and women may be dead because of the lunacy of one man, but also, because of an irrational "feel good" reaction that guarantees that each and every time one of these lunatics walks into a school or college, the "Safe Schools Act" (and in Illinois the ban on concealed carry) guarantees that the "shooter" is safe because he knows that no one else but him is armed and therefore he can do his evil without fear of being immediately stopped.



Any teacher, professor, maintenance worker, other citizen who is qualified under reasonable standards, ought to be able to be capable of defending themselves and these young people from these maniacs. Time and time again, just as here, the very fast response time of about two minutes did not allow the police to stop this maniac.



What will it take, how many more innocent people? Our politicians are morally and philosophically bankrupt...



Please pray for the friends and families of these victims...

 

[Greg. Avery]

Greg well said. It is a shame that we can't stop this madness because of the politicians. I would like to know what persent of the politicians carry a weapon NO matter where they are!!

Our prayers are sent.

 

[Jay Davis]

My thoughts and prayers do go out to the families and friends of thoose involed including persons who were first on the scene. I live in the Omaha, Nebraska area where we were rocked by the same kind of sensless tragedy on December 5, 2007.. While I did not personally know any of the families involed the whole area feels it. What makes it worse, that just seemed to be the end of a year that had the most murders ever in the city of Omaha's history. I want it to be known, that I am in no way against guns that are properly used and stored. But this type of tragedy does not help the NRA cause. But the problem doesn't start with a gun. It starts with congress,senate,state and local governments and the court system who make it almost impossible to disipline a child to teach them right from wrong with out fear of going to jail. And with few exceptions, respect from anyone under the age of 19 is un-heard of. I don't have any answers to the questions. I do know that my wife and I have raised two daughters that have respect for all people. I can even say with pride that our twenty year old daughter and myself are traveling to the Classic next week. She is going as a representative for FisHHer company here in Omaha. Her next step is going to be the WBT. But she will be the first to tell you that she learned from her mistakes and that, while not at the time, mom and dad just might have been right. As anglers, I feel that we can start to reach out to youth and help guide them down a different path. I don't know about you guy's and gal's, But you can't make a video game that makes you feel the way you do at 5:30 AM when the water is like glass, the birds a waking up, ad you line goes tight! That is why we do what we do. Maybe just maybe we can start to reverse the trend.

 

[Bill McElroy]

After seeing that on the news last night I just had to shake my head and think to myself,...."Here we go AGAIN!!" I just took the CCW class here in MI.....will be turning in the paperwork and photo's next week!! I hope I NEVER have to use it, but with all the nutjobs running around now days and the fact that Pontiac (I live 3-4 miles away)just laid off 3/4 of their entire police force over the past 2-3 years...just makes me want to be all the more "self reliant" if you catch my drift. Illinois politicians should be recalled and held accountable at the voting booths for their ridiculous policies if they can't provide the security their citizens require due to their ludicrous ideals! Anyway,...this is just another tragic, example of why "gun control" does NOT work!!



God Bless the victims and their families....

 

[Scott Hammer TOXIC]

We as citizens cannot expect law enforcement to protect us one and all. There just isn't enough of them. Our Police are reactionary, they respond after the fact, it is the nature of the business. Their presence or proximity may deter but for the most part they pick up the pieces. We have to take protection of ourselves, our family and our belongings personal and not expect LEO's to do it. It is the nature of our "free" society that nut jobs can walk into a school auditorium, mall store, or college university and take innocent lives. It is the price we pay. I, for one, would not trade my freedoms for Police protection at another level. I also understand that choice makes us/me more vulernable. I will protect myself and my family however the law provides but I will say this......



A gun in the hand is better than a cop on the phone.



TOXIC

 

[Marty Klein]

This is an extremely sad event and outcome. However, allowing every member of the audience to be armed isn't the answer. You assume that all in the audience are the sane folks and only the bad guy will be insane. That just isn't true. There was probably at least one other nut case in that class who shouldn't be allowed to carry a gun and many sane folks who just can't do it correctly regardless of training. And I can just imagine the chaos and slaughter if that incident turned into the gunfight at OK Corral. How do the good guys know that someone else who pulls out a gun is good or bad? Situations like that are potential problems for military and police who train repetitively for that situation. Do you really think it would be a good result when most of the armed people have not trained? The time to learn is not when gunfire erupts. You can bet that in the AAR of this incident there will multiples indicators that this was a potentiality and nobody took action that could have prevented it.

 

[Mark Hofman]

I live a few miles from Kirkwood, Missouri where a lunatic gunned down five people including two police officers and seriously wounded the mayor during a city council meeting. It took several minutes for Kirkwood City Police officers to get over to the council hall, where they shot the assailant to death.



I wonder, how many lives MIGHT have been saved had one or two licenced civilian observers been allowed to bring their CCW sidearms into the chamber. Would the gunman, knowing that CCW permit holders could be in the room, been so brazen in his attack? But no, the rules prohibit CCW in some buildings.



I work at a graduate school that prohibits the possession of a firearm on campus. There have been times when I've thought about how our faculty and students would respond to a gunman when it takes our city police an average of four minutes to get to campus; longer if several officers are required. We have a "bell tower" (reminiscent of U.T.'s clock tower in Austin, TX, notorious as the shooter's nest for a sniper not too many years ago) and I think about the destruction an insane person could inflict from that one location.



Why do I support CCW? Because it's a whole lot easier and lighter than carrying around a cop. It makes SOME people stop and think before they do something insane - not all, but a some.



I agree that not everyone should be licensed to carry. But those who are, and who receive thorough, proper training and who demonstrate proficient marksmanship under high-stress conditions should be allowed the opportunity to make a difference.

 

[Mark Hofman]

My dad forwarded me an e-mail he received:



I was once asked by a lady visiting if I had a gun in the house. To which I said I did. She said "well I certainly hope it isn't loaded!" To which I said, "of course it is loaded." She then asked, "Are you that afraid of some one evil coming into your house?" My reply was, "No not at all. I am not afraid of the house catching afire either, but I have fire extinguishers in my house and THEY ARE ALL LOADED."

 

[Greg Meyer]

Marty,



The system that we have is definitely broken... So, your supposition as argument does not really answer the question.



And, the idea that it would turn into the ok corral is also not supported by anything but supposition.



Here is a more likely scenario... Three or four reasonable people who have qualified (as they can in over forty states in the US) to carry a coincealed weapon, see this perp enter and unleash his first shot into the audience... They react and one or two of them connect.. They then lay down their guns and put their hands on their heads as the cops enter, also as they are taught...

 

[Greg Meyer]

this just got a lot more personal. One of the girls who was shot, and is still critical, is the daughter of a teacher who is in the same school with my wife.

 

[Jody Woodruff]

Allowing individuals with CCW permits to carry their weapon doesn't result in the "OK Corral". I don't think anyone is advocating that everyone should be able to carry a weapon just those that have a CCW. The idea that sticking a sign up stating an area is "gun free" is going to prevent a nut from shooting up the place is idiotic. The fact is a deranged nut doesn't consider whether he is breaking law when he decides to commit a terrible act like this. One responsible CCW holder could have stopped the nut but we will never know. Once thing is certain is the police weren't able to prevent now the ridiculous "gun free" law.

 

[Mark Hofman]

When a deranged nut walks into a room like this, hasn't he already considered the law and made a decision that (at least for him) the law -- any law -- just doesn't matter? If a person has decided to attempt mass murder, a piddly 'no guns allowed' sign or business policy required by or reflecting law doesn't mean squat.



I think if I had been in the chamber of the Kirkwood City Council as an observer, and allowed to carry, I wouldn't have been that shooter's primary target. He may have looked my way briefly, but the next contact would have been clip load of .40 or a cylinder full of .357 rounds delivered by me as a parting gift.



Is that mean? Am I sick? Do I have blood lust? No, I do not think the innocent should have to pay the price for stupidity.

 

[fatrap]

I think the media playing everything over and over and over just encourages this. IMO just report it and then back way off. Non stop coverage for hours just encourages this type of behavior. Even if the perp. shoots themselves they probably want a media event and their name infamous. Shut up Nancy, and Gretta report it and let it go.

fatrap

 

[Edward Lea.]

Amen Fatrap, Mentally unstable types will only copy this kind of thing when it is on the tube constantly. Report it and move on, maybe report some good news would help, I am sure there is something good happening some where.

 

[William H. (Bill) Barham]

I don't know how correct it is but my sister who lives in Florida told me citizens there can carry firearms after a background check and a gun safety course. She also told me that there was an appreciable rise in carjackings, armed robberies, etc since that law was passed. BUT, the rise in those crimes were against people with OUT OF STATE TAGS on their cars. They know that most tourists come from states that do not allow them to carry firearms. This is the only statistic you really need in order to pass a common sense carry law.

Even with a carry law I don't believe "every member of the audience" would arm themselves. A statistical survey compiled by Maryland Legislators after the tragedy

in Virginia showed that in a large college class size of 25, only about five people MAY be armed with a handgun while in class. A total of 15 will have some sort of handgun(s) at home, usually owned by their parents, while the rest have shotguns or nothing at all.

There was probably at least one other nut case in that class who shouldn't be allowed to carry a gun

That may be true Marty. I don't mean to insult our Police Officers at all but the University of California at Davis, about 15 years ago, did a study on just who should be allowed to carry a weapon. They did psychological profiles of 1500 Police Officers from all over California. Just about anyone you can name; What they found was interesting. Not one of the 1500 should be allowed to carry a gun!:huh: BUT, they also found, after testing quite a few (but not 1500) students, office workers, and workers on campus, that the 1500 Police Officers were the only ones tested who WANTED to carry a firearm! That sure threw me for a loop.

Greg A. I would bet at least 80% of lawmakers carry firearms, and if they don't they probably have a chauffeur or bodyguard or two who does.

In a very large Annapolis Mall two years ago, in the huge mid mall food court, a teenage gang member, in the middle of the food court, pulled a gun and started shooting at a rival gang member while that guy was running away through the crowd. He fired a full clip and was getting ready to reload when a customer pulled a pistol from an ankle holster and then walked up to the shooter and shot him. I don't remember if he killed him or not but he sure stopped the shooting. He was an off duty Policeman of some kind but that makes no difference. One trained, armed person stopped an idiot from hurting or killing innocent people.

My personal opinion is that people should be allowed to carry a firearm to protect themselves and their property. I would NOT like to carry any sort of weapon and right now I don't have one, and haven't since 1969, but I am looking for one now. But, the times we are in is going to make me get something for home security and for security if I go anywhere. My brother-in-law, who died a year ago, was at one time one of the biggest Colt collectors in the U.S.A. A couple of years before he left us he got rid of most of his weapons except for a very select few. I would just like to see a thief approach my car with his pistol, whatever it is, and I get to pull out my original and beautiful, Colt Buntline and point it at him.:lol: I don't mean to make light of this kind of situation but if I'm in Florida with Nancy, and we drive somewhere for the evening and I'm approached by someone like that, I'm going to wish I had a StreetSweeper so I could empty the whole thing into that no good s.o.b.



Uncle Billy

 

[Greg Meyer]

Billy ,



Well said... Amen!

 

[Mike Levesque]

Greg, close to home indeed. My thoughts and prayers of course go out to everyone involved, and to those affected by this.

My daughter in law just graduated from N.I.U. in 2007. Her husband, my oldest son, ended up going to Concordia in River Forest, then to I.S.U., and they're both now in California while he's stationed there with the U.S.S. Nimitz. They both went to high school with the shooter,(here in Elk Grove), were a year younger, and didn't know him too well. My oldest daughter also remembers him from high school, but again, doesn't remember much about him.



A sad situation indeed, answers? I don't know, so many arguments for and against as far as guns go. I don't have any answers, I just don't know.



A question I have is how can someone who had psychiatric problems even BEFORE graduating high school,was committed to a home immediately after graduation,has been on medication and under psychiatric supervision since high school, has a long history of instability, and yet even as recently as Feb 9th, was able to walk into a gun shop and buy weapons???



I guess there are no easy answers to any of this, my heart just goes out to everyone affected. Mike

 

[Mark Hofman]

Mike,



My wife got her Master's from Concordia-River Forest and my mother-in-law is an alum! Wow, that's a school name I never expected to see on this site.

 

[Greg Meyer]

Mike...



The answer is really very easy... Medical records are "absolutely" privileged because of the HIPAA (federal Medical Records Privacy Act). So, a criminal background check can be made through a data base but nothing is available to check... The only information requred is on the federal purchase form...



The "idea' of banning people treated for "mental illness" is seductive and simple at first reading... But, define "mental illness"... What about the police officer who has "counseling" (mandated by many departments) after a shooting incident. A family member who has problems dealing with the loss of a spouse or child who seeks treatment... Someone who has severe depression for some reason... Who makes the determination? The Counselor, Psyhologist, Psychiatrist or M.D. Who knows what would be reported... Then can you challenge that "report"... People with hidden agendas could cause chaos. This is just not such a simple issue...

 

[Mike Levesque]

Hi Mo, Yes, Kevin went there for one year, actually did very well, then transferred to I.S.U., then took a "break" from school and enlisted in the Navy, I don't know how it works, but somehow he is comtimuing his education while enlisted too. (He wants to be a teacher).



Greg, Good points, like I said, I don't know what the answer would be, and I'd hate to see rights infringed for those who wish to own a firearm.



I was thinking at work today, and of course could be wrong, but as more details are coming out, it seems this wasn't spur of the moment, and that this guy had been planning this for at least a few weeks. I'm wondering if even if he had no weapons,and was Hell bent on going out this way, he'd have found a way, possibly by doing something else. He'd have probably still found a way to get the end results he wanted. Very sad. Anyway, thanks for the input Greg, helps to show it's not such a simple thing to figure out. Mike

 

[Greg Meyer]

Beginnng in June/July of this year there are some new state of Illinois mandated reporting standards... But, as I understand it, even these were probably not triggered by this guys past history...



I really do not see how more stringent gun control laws can prevent something like this...



As you have pointed out, he was apparently planning this...



I am a retired Law Enforcement Officer... And, before that, in the Marine Corps, Infantry Platoon Leader (Lt/Capt)... I have seen my share of violence.



And, in particular, as statstically abberrant as it is, three shooting/armed confrontation incidents while I was a police officer... two of those while I was off duty. In at least one of those incidents, I know the other off duty officer and I were responsible for preventing harm to a lot of other people. And, another time while off duty I stopped a robbery/kidnapping/hostage taking in a retail establishment without firing a shot... just announcing my presence to the perp's back and he took no chances and surrendered. So, in 15 years of carrying a firearm I know I halted one perp who was shooting at a store owner/witness and toward a small crowd of people... he won't be shooting anyone now. And, I know that I ended another incident by being armed and present and in the third instance a domestic incident escalated to an officer being shot at as I drove down a rsidential street... I stopped to assist and it ended with the guy's surrender.



I have a friend, another now retired officer who, while off duty, witnessed a bank robbery in progress, saw two officers shot, one killed and he stopped his car across the street, exited his vehicle, and took out two of the perps at the scene and a third died in his apartment. The fourth surrendered. How many lives were saved by that, we can only guess... They were shoot first and ask questions later bandits... the first two officers responding to the scene were ambushed... that was the plan. One of those lived because my friend "stopped" the shooter from "executing" the second officer



See the story below about Illinois' new mental health reporting requirements:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080218/ap_on_re_us/niu_shooting_gun_law

 

[Rich Stern]

Truly sad when these events unfold.



Marty, to counter your point, there have been two cases in all of these high profile school shootings where civilians had access to guns and intervened.



Appalachian Law School shooting. Two civilians retrieved their legally owned guns from their cars and stopped the assailant at gunpoint.



Pearl, MS high school shooting, a vice principal got a handgun from his truck and stopped the shooter at gunpoint.



In both cases, the body count should have been higher, but for armed, capable civilians with legally owned guns. Had they not been prevented by law from having the handguns on their person, the body counts would have been lower still.



According to a statistical study in Florida, CCW permit holders are among the most law abiding demographic in our society. Something like ten times less likely to commit a crime than the average citizen.



Thoughts and prayer to the victims of the NIU shooting.