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Scott Hammer TOXIC

Scott Hammer TOXIC

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Call your engine manufacture and see what they recommend. I called Mercury and of course they recommended using their stabilizer, but if it wasn't available, to use blue Sta-bil. They told me under no circumstance should I use Startron because of the chemical make up.
Click to expand...



Saw this posted in response to the use of "Startron" in Mercs. Any truth to it?



TOXIC
 
Did a quick check and I don't see anything in the form of a "memo", "bulletin" or "advisory" relative to that subject. I can't and won't speak for Merc, but IMHO, the use of ANY additives {as long as it meets spec} would not void the warranty UNLESS the product in question has been proven to be the CAUSE of any failure. Maybe call StarTron and ask them if my motor blows up and the maker says tests show that your product caused the problem.....are you going to warranty it? Personally, I do not use it.

Just like the "great oil debate", this is a delicate subject. I'm actually going through the same thing with VW on my new Golf diesel, and what if any fuel additives are approved and which ones aren't.....I can't get a straight answer. :angry:
 
Unless one just does what Merc or VW says to do vice looking to do something different. Folks have had German and Japanese cars last forever because those manufacturers forced owners to comply with maintenance. Folks expected to buy an American car and have it last forever without mandated maintenance; then they complained because they didn't last as long as German and Japanese cars. Too dense to realize that mandated or recommended maintenance is key to long life.
 
Bob, What do you recommend? I have been using Startron in my 50 Merc for about 5 years now without an issue.:unsure:
 
I've been using Startron for 6 years two different motors with good results (meaning no problems). I started using it because it was more readily available in my area, but have no reason to switch.



HP
 
Without making a brand preference, I just wanted to say that using one or another is much better than trusting the contents of what comes out of the nozzle and using no treatment. (I've seen the refining from the inside out in my early years with American Oil.) I test my regular station's supply every now and then for the ethanol content and it varies between 4-8% on the same grade. (87 octane). I strongly suggest everyone to use some form of fuel system treatment and conditioner, plus a stabilizer for storage. Good luck! ;)
 
I've been using Stabil Ethanol Marine treatment in my Yamaha HPDI. Any issues with using it? I haven't had any.
 
TC,



Memorize this cocktail.



-1oz Marine Stabil or Mercury QuickCare per 6 gallons fuel

-1oz Quickleen per 6 gallons fuel

-1-2oz SeaFoam per 6 gallons fuel





TOXIC
 
Star Tron has never harmed any engine in the 10+ years it has been on the market. There are many, many Merc, Yamaha, etc techs that use it in their own engines....

The contents are pretty basic: a fuel suspension and the active ingredient enzyme blend. OEMs will always promote products that have their brand on the label, but none will void a warranty if you use something else, as long as you stay within the specs. There are no specs for fuel treatments, btw, while there are for motor oils.





Star brite has been making marine products for 40 years. We stand behind every one because we use them on our own boats, so they Have to work.



btw part II - Seafoam contains alcohol so be careful using it with E10 fuel. You don't want to add any more alcohol or you will risk voiding a warranty.



If anyone wants to ask us any questions, feel free to call us directly at (800) 327-8583.



Bill at Star brite
 
By the way, Bass Pro Shops sells Star Tron, as well as Nitro and Tracker boats. They are very careful of what they carry in the stores, which is why you will find a wide range of Star brite products. Snake oil? Not so much.
 
Thanks Bill, it is always good to hear information directly from the manufacturer. The only reason I brought it up was that there seemed to be a negative perception from Merc. Bob B is a trusted merc specialist on here and I wanted his take on the comments. As he stated, he found no direction from merc on not using your product.



TOXIC
 
Good to see the factory response on this topic. I have a couple of questions for you Bill.

-1] I hope you are not referring to Sea-Foam as "snake oil". As with all Sales personell, I would hope to hear why your product is better, rather than negative sell the competition.

-2] As far as "additive spec", consumers can and will put anything into their fuel tanks. Spec, is a "fuel additive designed or approved for use in the Makers product".

-3] On a test conducted with your product quite some time ago, we mixed a small amount of water in a plastic container with some fresh fuel. We put in some Star-Tron in the correct doseage, and after agitation, the mixture separated forming a dark colored substance on the bottom of the container. Could you tell us what the separation consists of? In other words, in normal phase separation, the water and ethanol {as a percentage} will separate and fall to the bottom, leaving a degraded {octane deprived} fuel on top. This slurry is non-combustible an can clog filters, injectors, jets, etc. When I called Star-Tron, the answer I received was that this "slurry" is in fact combustible and can be safely burned through. My questions....what is the octane deprivation result from the leftover "fuel", and what "octane" does this now combustible slurry have? We will assume we started with 87....
 
I'm back.



Scott, thanks fo rthe heads up. I'm trying to catch a flight to a trade show in Reno, so I will answer this in parts.



First of all.

I did not call Sea Foam snake oil. I have never called any other product snake oil.



Products should be sold on the basis of what they can do. Attack ads are a pathetic way to try and sell a product. We have been attacked in ads by our competitors which we see as flattery.



SeaFoam has been around for along time and we've all used it. It does contian IPA - isoprporyl alcohol, which you need to know if you use it with E10 fuel. As the VP of Mercury said when he introduced the new 150hp 4-stroke at the Ft Lauderdale Boat Show, and I'm paraphrasing a bit, when asked by a boating writer if the engine could withstand more than 10% alcohol, "This engine is designed to run on a maximum of 10% alcohol. Anything in excess of 10% could affect the warranty." The event was held at the IGFA facility; I was there.



SeaFoam is a very effective gunk remover. Like I said, we've all used it, including me back when I was a kid and liked the way the light oil caused huge clouds of smoke to pour out of my old Jeep (a 47 Willys was my first car) tailpipe. I don't use it in E10 fuel, and in all honesty, I prefer the way my company's product removes gunk.



I'll get back to this at the next layover....
 
"I DID NOT CALL SEA FOAM SNAKE OIL! I have never called any other product snake oil. I firmly believe anyone who throws that term around is a moron. It's painting everythig with a broad brush and in most cases is a big clue the term-user doesn't have a clue."



WOW. You threw out that term. Let's drop it, move on, and use this thread as a learning curve.



I would really like to hear some technically accurate advise to the questions posed earlier on. We appreciate your input.
 
I do not know what TTT means, but I will get back to you as soon as I can.



Bill



Cut me and I bleed Star Tron Blue :)
 
-2] As far as "additive spec", consumers can and will put anything into their fuel tanks. Spec, is a "fuel additive designed or approved for use in the Makers product".



The Owners Manual of outboard engines typically describes what must be used in order to ensure that the warranty will be honored. I have not seen a manual that requires the use of a specific brand of fuel treatment or motor oil. The manuals I have seen lay out the specs that must be met, such as a motor oil that complies with the NMMA's FC-W for 4-stroke oil and TC-W3 for 2-stroke oils, but I've not yet seen any type of certification for a fuel treatment. There are not any such certifications out there. An OEM treatment would certainly be assumed to be designed for use in the manufacturer's engine while causing no harm, but that is not the same as saying that no others can be used. We strongly advise making sure of the contents of any fuel treatment being used.





-3] On a test conducted with your product quite some time ago, we mixed a small amount of water in a plastic container with some fresh fuel. We put in some Star-Tron in the correct doseage, and after agitation, the mixture separated forming a dark colored substance on the bottom of the container. Could you tell us what the separation consists of? In other words, in normal phase separation, the water and ethanol {as a percentage} will separate and fall to the bottom, leaving a degraded {octane deprived} fuel on top. This slurry is non-combustible an can clog filters, injectors, jets, etc. When I called Star-Tron, the answer I received was that this "slurry" is in fact combustible and can be safely burned through. My questions....what is the octane deprivation result from the leftover "fuel", and what "octane" does this now combustible slurry have? We will assume we started with 87....



Star Tron is not designed to be used in a test tube. Star Tron's enzymes act to disperse water thoughout the fuel in microscopic size so that it can be eliminated while the engine is operating in order to help avoid phase separation from occuring. There is nowhere for the water to go in a test tube, so that's not a valid experiment, as Star Tron is not an emulsifier (it's actually a de-emulsifier). If you add alcohol or any other type of emulsifying agent to water and fuel, the emulsifiers will "entrap/enjoin" the water, making it seem to go away. In reality, the water is still there. Emulsification actually degrades fuel quality, a fact borne out by the FAA and DOD's ban on emulsifying agents in aviation fuel, where that are classified as contaminants. It's a neat trick, but misleading, as the "disappearing water" is still there, but now in even larger clumps that will lead to degraded engine performance and the creation of carbon deposits. Adding more alcohol to E10 is not a great idea. As far as the dark slurry Bob saw, without seeing photos or knowing how much water was added, I cannot provide an answer. We've run a lot of tests but have never seen a reaction like that. Star Tron cannot make fuel suddenly go bad.



Phase separation takes place when the water content of E10 exceeds .5%, which is not all that typical a scenario. The normal issues attributable to E10 fuel are related to the formation of gum and other debris that occurs withing 30-45 days of the ethanol being blended with the gas. E10 is formulated to be used within 30 days.



If phase separation were to take place, the result would be a layer of gasoline under which you'd have the ethanol/water mixture (ethanol and water form a tight chemical bond, whiel ethanol adn gasoline do not form a chemcial bond). The gasoline would certainly have lost a few octane points, but there is no hard and fast answer as to what that amount would be.
 
Why is a test tube ( or any other container ) different than a fuel tank for the sake of experimentation? Thanks for the response......

As far as the fuel, consumers more often than not use an additive not so much ifor preventative measures, but in fact because there is a problem. If in fact the fuel has phase separated, you claim that it re-emulsifies the separation. Why can't this be duplicated by shaking up a "test tube"?
 
It's really pretty simple: Star Tron works in the fuel tank, dispersing the water and debris (Gum, varnish, etc) into small particles that can be removed while the engine is running. Timy particles of water can be vaporized witht he fuel charge while gums or varnish can be burned off with the fuel charge. In a test tube, there is nowhere for all this material to go.



As far as fuel being tested, it's important to know what you are starting with. Fresh gas from the pump or a hand-blend concocted in a lab will react differently than fuel pulled from a gas tnak that has been sitting in the back yard for 6 months or longer. The feul tnak may have varnish, there may be gums and other debris present - there are many facotrs. This is why ASTM and other tests are run using fresh, clean fuel.



In 9999.99% of the cases, fuel has truly phase separated, it's not going to be reversed. If there is some wate rin the fuel - but less than the .5% needed for phase seapration to occur, you can absolutley avoid it happening.



I do not know what you menan by "re-emulsifies the separation" - if you add an emulsifying agent to fuel with water, the water will be emulsified. Star Tron is a de-emulsifying agent, but I don't follow your re-emulsify question. We've never said anything about "re-emulsifying." Emulsifying is BAD. Go back and re-read my comments,or better yet, pick up the phone and call us (800) 327-8583. Ask for me. It seems there is some confusion; we really want to help sort it out and answer your questions.
 
"An emulsion is a mixture of two or more liquids that are normally immiscible (un-blendable)," i.e. water and gasoline.

OK....so I might have this term "emulsification" confused. This is where I am going with this.....

As a Dealer, we service approx 2500 boats per year. I see a LOT of phase separated fuels. Too much in fact. If we use your product, will it allow this "phase separated" fuel {notice I stayed away from "re-de-whatever emulsified"} to be safely burned through? And if so...my original questions still are out to jury....with modern motors and a lack of consistent fuel, less-than-adequate octane could / will cause damage. Another twist, without knowing the extent of phase separated volume, how can we adequately measure the quantity of Star-Tron to introduce?

As far as the experiment I did, you're right...I did not measure anything. All I did was put a little water in a plastic container, and then put some e-10 fuel on top of it...maybe at a ratio of 10:1. When I shook it around after adding Star-Tron, the separation turned a dark color.....

Thanks again for the lessons.....
 
If the fuel has truly gone into full phase separation where you see the distinct layer of gas above and ethanol/weater below, pump it out of the tank. You will not be able to "repair" it.





 
THANK-YOU!

That is one of the answers I was looking for. The Consumer is not aware {or educated in this area} enough to know the difference when / if the fuel has in fact separated. As stated earlier, the additives are being used WHEN there is an operational problem more often than not. With the price of "gas" today, it is hard to swallow additives. Don't take this wrong Bill....but even on your bottle the claims of "rejuvenates old fuel", "cures ethanol issues" are somewhat misleading. If E-10 has a shelf life of 30 days...anything over that would be considered "old"? If it does not cure phase separated fuel, how does the term "rejuvenate" come into play?

PLEASE bear in mind that I sell your product because we have Customers asking for it, and I am just trying to understand what your product does, what it doesn't do, and what I can explain to my Customers. If nothing else Bill, I am persistant in problem resolution. I'm gonna go add some Sea-Foam to my coffee now....time for a break..;)
 
Bob, there is a huge difference between rejuvenating old fuel, which Star Tron has been proven to do, and reversing phase separation. Very few fuel treatments claim to reverse phase separation; Star Tron is not one of them.
 
GREAT info guys,...keep the banter going......Thank you both!! When we had SueD. on here from Guest, we got invaluable info straight from the source,..same with Greg from Humminbird, now......sure wish we could get MORE employees from various mfgr's to join and help us out!! :wub:
 
Bill, perhaps you could explain / verify the meanings of "cures ethanol issues" and "rejuvenate", as I am somewhat confused.....playing devils advocate......;)
 
Remind me to send you a dictionary for Christmas :)



"Rejuvenate" as in we have Lab Tests that show that Star Tron can improve octane in old, substandard and non-spec fuel. We have seen Star Tron allow th euse of fuel that is 2 years old.



"cures ethanol problems" in that it enhances combustibility of fuel (ethanol has less BTUs than gas, so by allowing the hydrocarbons (gasoline) to burn more completely, you also provide more power and fuel economy) while also stabilizing fuel (ethanol dioes not form a chemical bond to gas, and E10 is formualted to be used within 30 days. By stabilizing the chemistry, the enzymes keep the fuel viable and help prevent the formation of gums and debris that occurs as the E10 begins to degrade if not stabilized. It is these gums and debris that is the main culprit of making E10 fueled engines run poorly - not phase seapration. The enzymes also work to disperse moisture throughout the fuel as tiny particles that can be vaporized while the engine operates. You cannot make water magically disappear or make it burn, but you can break the water clumps apart into tiny bits that can be vaporized when the fuel charge combusts.
 
You can send me a dictionary if I can send you some Sea-Foam...LOL.

Ok, I give. I tend to be "lawyerly" when it comes to term usage and my interpretations are perhaps a bit different than yours. That's OK. We can agree to perhaps disagree and move forth.

I hope that this thread enlightens people in this area and will help them take pro-active measures to prevent "bad" fuel from ruining their day.....and their motor. ;)

 
Good info here, started thinking that I was reading a short story..... My Father always use to tell me that "experience is the best teacher" and well before Marine Stabil came along I have used Seafoam in all my gasoline engines which currently consist of 90 Merc, 2 different kinds of lawnmowers, 2 weedeaters, leaf blower, chainsaw, motorcycle, 3000 PSI pressure washer and every other tank or so in both my truck and car. All of which ( except truck ) have an Off season where they won't be used for several months ( no harsh winters here in N Fl ) and never had any problems when it's time to use, I will say that I always use gas cut off valve ( have installed them on some of the mentioned stuff ) and tried to keep their tanks low going into off season but still have gas stored in containers which is treated at time of fill.



It's Sea-foam for me all the way.....
 
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