Hey TritonGlenn (or anybody else in the know)---I need some ballistic's info

[Bill McElroy]

I've got a Ruger M77/44 (.44 Mag) bolt action carbine, exactly like the one pictured below. It's a riot to shoot...have killed 2 deer with it and both were @30-40yd shots. I've got a Nikon "Prostaff" 2-7X35 scope on it. My questions are:



1. What kind of range can I expect with it? Ideally, I wouldn't expect to shoot beyond 100yds with it, since I only use it in thicker cover or swampy areas anyway,..it's a great "brush gun" and most shots are inside 50yds MAX! (I have a .270 for open areas)



2. I have 2 different boxes of ammo...one box is 240gr. and the other is 165gr. Would they be about the same out to 100yds? Obviously the 240's will drop faster out to 150, but the ft./lbs are much better with the 240gr.



3. Should I "zero" the scope for dead-on at 100yds or 50yds? I'm guessing I should have it either zeroed at 50 or 1" high at 50 and then I'd be fine out to 100yds with either load.



Just curious,....thanks!!

Mac



BTW,.....it doesn't kick much either,....but the flash that muzzle puts out is unreal!!:blink::wacko: It flat out stones a deer too...neither one ran 20yds! I traded a Ruger Mini 14 (.223) for it.....it looked then and still looks now, brand new!! I bet it didn't have 100 rds thru it. I love the damn thing...it's really light and easy to swing around in tight cover...FUN to shoot and very accurate at 50yds..(1" groups)

 

[Greg Meyer]

Mac,



Give me some "brand" info on the ammo... Velocity will be the factor here...



Realistically out to 100 yards there shouldn't be much difference, but I would like the brand info to give you exact info.



You could also set a target up at 100 yards and fire three of each using the same zero to get a comparison (actual results from your gun are always more definitive, anyway).

 

[Bill McElroy]

The 240Gr. is PMC,....165Gr. is Remington.......

 

[TritonGlenn]

Mac,

Greg probably is much more versed in ballistics than I will ever be. I'd like to help, but any information coming from me on this particular subject will be extremely minor in comparison to what Greg can probably provide.



There are ballistics programs, which I do not have. I find most of my balistics data from individual manufacturers websites, but I believe there is much more that comes into play regarding actual numbers, as most listings do not account for different barrels, etc...



Greg,

Please correct me if I'm wrong here - but the barrel length / rate of twist affects the ballistics, so individual results might vary greatly from what is in those manufacture's tables, right? I think those tables only take into account one length of barrel, or an "average", correct?



All the best,

Glenn

 

[Brian Ingersoll]

Looks like a fun gun to shoot - I have been looking for the semi-auto version of that gun for my dad.

I would shoot it like Greg says - zero at 100, then shoot at 50 and 150 and see what the arch looks like.

 

[Greg Meyer]

Internal and external ballistics are both fascinating aspects of shooting. Internal issues such as powder choice, primer variations, different brands of cases all affect performance one way or another. Most people are most interested in external ballistics; trajectory, velocity at the muzzle and downrange... Ballistics coefficients of bullets, etc. (And, there are now some "super bullets" that have actually been around as concepts for a long time. Ultimately, however, almost everyone is concerned with terminal ballistics (really real world performance). You can get a 110 grain .30 caliber bullet to fly out of a .30-06 at some impressive numbers as far as velocity (3400 to 3600 fps) but because the barrel waqs selected for heavier bullets in the 150-180 grain range the rifling is too fast and the bullets perform poorly as far as accuracy is concerned. So, it is a liitle bit of everything and some of it is a compromise... That's why I said in my initial post to sight it in and then compare. I'll plug the factory data into my ruger real world data and ghet some numbers back to you later tonight or tomorrow.

One thing, I'll add my comments, thusly... A whole lot of lead came flying out of Winchesters and Marlins over the years in .44-40 and .45 Long Colt calibers and delivered satisfactory results on "meat". The .44 Mag is a high performance pistol round so it is more than likely to be a good (under 100 yards or so) deer caliber.



I do "most" of my deer hunting with a .257 Roberts built up on a small ring Mexican Mauser action with a Douglas Barrel that I built up (with a good bit of help from a patient and knowledgeable gunsmith and friend) back in 1966. I don't use it every time. But, for my usual deer hunting (under 250 yards) it is a lightning bolt. However, in Illinois (and it is no handicap) where shotgun slug only is allowed I have a very accurate fully rifled 12ga Remington 1100 that is also a 1-2" shooter at 100 yards. I would consider a .44 Mag in a rifle/carbine to be a virtual tie with my slug gun.



BTW... my "best" .22 LR is a Ruger 77/22 that was "touched up" by a specialist/gunsmith. It was my reward to myself way back in 1983 when I quit smoking. It too is a great looking gun (extrenally almost identical to Mac's, except for the barrel profile and "clip". I love the gun.

 

[Greg Meyer]

First here is a link to a whole bunch of factory ballistics info/charts
http://www.tjgeneralstore.com/ballistic_charts.htm

 

[Eric Aasen]

Of the two rounds listed I would lean toward the 240 grain as it will be tougher and won't expand as violently. The 165 will be much faster and may even have been designed for violent expansion to keep penetration to a minimum in an urban environment. The point of impact shouldn't be all that different at 100 yrds but I have a ballistic calculator at work I could check them. I know the ballistics out of a 7" pistol which I have but not too sure about a rifle. Do you have any idea of velocity for the rounds mentioned? That would also give a good idea about where to sight in. You are probably correct 1" high at 50 yrds should be good out to 100-125.



NoCAL

 

[Greg Meyer]

Here is some info from PMC on their .44 Mag ammo:



CALIBER ITEM NO. BULLET TYPE WEIGHT (Grains) (at the Muzzle) ENERGY (ft. lbs.)

44 Rem Mag 44B JHP 180 783

MUZZLE 25 Yds 50 Yds 75 Yds 100 Yds

VELOCITY (feet/second) 1400 1270 1167 1091 1032

BULLET PATH (inches) +0.42 0.00 -2.01 -5.84



44 Rem Mag 44D TCSP 240 900

MUZZLE 25 Yds 50 Yds 75 Yds 100 Yds

VELOCITY (feet/second) 1300 1216 1144 1086 1038

BULLET PATH (inches) +0.49 0.00 -2.11 -6.00





From Remington I am unable to find info on a 165 grain offering, sorry.





But, as you can see, at pistol velocities (8" barrel)... The "Point Blank Range" (neither more than 2" from line of sight up or down) would extrapolate out to about 85 yards with a zero at about 65 yards. Set your rifle sights to shoot about 1/2 high at 50 yards and you should be good to go at 100 yards (no more than 2" of drop from line of sight). At least that is where I would start. By the way, as you can see, the 240 grain retains velocity better after 75 yards...





There is a useful calculator at the site listed below. Play around with it...



Some common ballistics coefficients of .44 pistol bullets are as follows:



Speer 240 soft point .429 240 gr 0.175



185 gr should be about 0.135



210 gr sbould be about 0.160



300 gr should be about 0.230



Now in handloads youn ought to be able to get something like 1800-1900 fps with a 185 gr load in your rifle. And, a handloaded .240 gr should be able to get around 1700-1800 fps. Finally, a 300 gr shoukld be able to produce around 1400-1500 fps...



Put those numbers into the calculator for a 300 gr and I get the following:



Max Point blank range is 137 yds when zeroed at 116 yds.

Line of sight Velocity Energy

Muzzle -1.5 1400 1306

25 0.2 1341 1199

50 0.8 1287 1103

75 0.0 1236 1018

100 -2.2 1189 942

125 -5.9 1147 877

150 -11.3 1110 821



Deer sized game for me is a minimum of 1000 ft/lbs of energy so the 300 gr is good out to 100 yards


http://www.biggameinfo.com/BalCalc.aspx

 

[Eric Aasen]

One thing I forgot to mention, the absolute best bullet you can get for the 44 mag is the 270 grain Speer Gold Dot soft point. It mushrooms pretty good but it holds together for complete penetraion. Not sure if it can be found in loaded ammunition though. I handload only for the .44 it's too expensive to buy ammo for it!



Gregs numbers should be about right for a rifle. I get about 1300 fps for a 240 grain from my 7.5" pistol barrel.



NoCAL

 

[Greg Meyer]

I think most of the factory 165gr .44 Mag is loaded at about 900fps for Cowboy Action Shooting. But, on that I am not positive.

 

[Bill McElroy]

WOW,...excellent info...thanks guy's!!! I'll get it dialed in for 1" high at 50 yds and then launch a couple down range to 100yds, and see where I'm at. In the areas where I'd use that gun anyway, a 50 yd shot would be long!..LOL



I'm pretty much set for deer hunting anywhere in the country anyway........between my Remington 870 .20ga. rifled slug gun, my Ruger .44mag and my .270 Weatherby Mag,....I can hunt anywhere from swamps/thickets,...to hardwoods,..to wide open fields and plains.



Thanks again.....all I need now is vacation time, tags, and arrangements (and another freezer now that my wife has all the sudden taken a liking to Venison!!:blink: It took her 40 years, but now she's gone from "that's GROSS"....to,.."WOW,...that's GOOD,..when can we have some more?!":huh::blink:!!



Carry on!!

Mac