Lithium LifeP04 battery question?

[arzenmaster]

Question for those who have LiFeP04 experience? I can't get Dakota Customer service to answer any questions.

I just got 3 new LiFeP04 batteries from Dakota Lithium.

I just finished the initial charge of my trolling motor batteries and starting battery. After removing the factory chargers for 30 minutes

The starting battery ended the charge cycle with a voltage of 13.56v.

Trolling battery #1 @ 13.13v
Trolling battery #2 @ 13.76v

After 12 hrs being disconnected from the charger. Trolling battery #1 came up to 13.54v. Voltage probably isn't the end all in LiFeP04 capacity. I also realize that resting voltage doesn't tell the whole story in lithiums.

Should I be concerned that Trolling battery #1 may have an issue as the resting charge voltage took an eternity to stabilize?

I'm partly thinking that there might be a few cells that are duds or inferior in that new battery, and may not have the storage capacity that it should.

I haven't connected the 2 trolling batteries in series yet and am hesitant to do so to place a load on them.

I used 2 separate descent quality multimeters to verify the readings are accurate.


Any insight would be appreciated.

 

[Woody b]

It's my understanding that the BMS in new batteries can take a while to balance the cells. I wouldn't worry about them, just use them. Resting voltage with my Ionic's is usually 13.4 to 13.6 when fully charged.

 

[jerry shack]

Question for those who have LiFeP04 experience?

I just got 3 new LiFeP04 batteries from Dakota Lithium.

I just finished the initial charge of my trolling motor batteries and starting battery. After removing the factory chargers for 30 minutes

The starting battery ended with a voltage of 13.56v.

Trolling battery #1 @ 13.13v
Trolling battery #2 @ 13.76v

After 12 hrs being disconnected from the charger. Trolling battery #1 came up to 13.54v. Voltage probably isn't the end all in LiFeP04 capacity. I also realize that retsing voltage doesn't tell the whole story in lithiums.

Should I be concerned that Trolling battery #1 may have an issue as the resting charge voltage took an eternity to stabilize?

I'm partly thinking that there might be a few cells that are duds in that new battery, and may not have he storage capacity that it should.

I haven't connected the 2 trolling batteries in series yet and am hesitant to do so to place a load on them.

I used 2 separate descent quality multimeters to verify the readings are accurate.


Any insight would be appreciated.

I have a Dakota Lithium for just my electronics and it took a long time to get a full initial charge using the charger that came with the battery ( piece of junk) . I have a 4 bank charger and had to purchase a signal charger for that battery which was well worth it. I could tell the difference in the life of the battery.

 

[arzenmaster]

Signal Charger? I'm not sure what that is, unless you're talking about magnetic resonance? Signal rectifier maybe?

I Have a MinnKota 330 on board that is LiFeP04 compatible. Hopefully it will do a better job than the cheap ones that Dakota sent me.

The BMS's really should do most of the work, cell balancing, high voltage, low voltage, short circuit protection. I've seen (Well some you tube critical reviews.) that Dakota has had some issues with their Chinese BMS's not living up to claimed performance, and spotty production in some areas otherwise, does it affect performance? I dunno? Time will tell for me.

 

[200mph]

Would it make sense to contact Dakota Lithium in the event this is indicative of a battery/charger problem?

With respect to charger, I've been satisfied with the Victron Blue Smart IP67 charger (24v/12amp) over the past year of use with a 24volt Lithium battery. The built in app is nice to track battery performance.

Which starting battery did you buy?

 

[arzenmaster]

I sent an email from the Dakota customer service web site about the issue and tried to call the day I posted this (Monday 0930 pst). I can't find any way to talk with anyone other than for sales.

I sent a follow up requesting information about 1000 PST today (Thursday) as well. I've not gotten a response yet, Crickets. I'll give them a few more days to respond.

I guess I could try the sales line tomorrow and maybe I can actually talk to someone, instead of waiting for email responses.

The 24 volt battery kit is also missing the terminal bolts, and they haven't responded as to whether they'll send those or not as well.

The slow stabilizing battery is most likely fine? I guess? I'm guessing the BMS stopped the charging of cells at some lower voltage to balance them, and the next charging cycle will show a different final voltage.

The stabilized voltage on the battery that caused me concern has stayed around 13.45v a week later. It would be nice to hear Dakota's thoughts as to whether the low initial voltage that climbs over hours after charger removal is normal behavior or problematic. The other 2 batteries started at a higher voltage, after charger removal and then slowly declined to resting voltage. Which is what I expected.

Starting battery: DL+ 12v 60Ah Dual Purpose 1000CCA Starter Battery Plus Deep Cycle Performance.

 

[arzenmaster]

This is a nice reference chart.

This chart is not from Dakota, but LiFeP04 cells are well ...... LiFeP04 cells. If this chart applies, then the resting charge of the battery that I am questioning is only holding a charge of about 13.45v @ 94+%. which appears to be acceptable. But the end of initial charge that showed 13.13v @ 60% when the charge cycle was complete would mean to me that the battery cells where terribly out of balance.

I'm guessing this might be a normal situation for a new battery that just came out of storage.. A couple of cells might have been below 30% and maybe a couple above 30% and the BMS wasn't able to balance them?

Nearly a week later I can't get any info from Dakota? I'm kind of left to dig for this stuff elsewhere.

 

[jerry shack]

Signal Charger? I'm not sure what that is, unless you're talking about magnetic resonance? Signal rectifier maybe?

I Have a MinnKota 330 on board that is LiFeP04 compatible. Hopefully it will do a better job than the cheap ones that Dakota sent me.

The BMS's really should do most of the work, cell balancing, high voltage, low voltage, short circuit protection. I've seen (Well some you tube critical reviews.) that Dakota has had some issues with their Chinese BMS's not living up to claimed performance, and spotty production in some areas otherwise, does it affect performance? I dunno? Time will tell for me.

Sorry, my mistake, what I meant was a single bank charger. I bought a Noco because my 4 bank charger is a Noco and I am very pleased with it, super fast charge. And when the battery is stone dead and not a volt left, other chargers won't charge. With Noco they have a dead start mode that will begin the charging process. I have a 12V 23amp hour Dakota Lithium it runs my 3 units all day.

 

[jerry shack]

I sent a note to Dakota customer service about the issue and tried to call the day I posted this (Monday 0930 pst). I sent a follow up requesting information about 1000 PST today (Thursday) as well. I've not gotten a response yet, Crickets. I'll give them a few more days to respond.

I guess I should try the sales line tomorrow and maybe I can actually talk to someone, instead of waiting for email responses.

The 24 volt battery kit is also missing the terminal bolts, and they haven't responded as to whether they'll send those or not as well.

The slow stabilizing battery is most likely fine. I'm guessing the BMS stopped the charging of cells at some lower voltage to balance them, and the next charging cycle will show a different final voltage.

The stabilized voltage on the battery that caused me concern has stayed around 13.45v a week later. It would be nice to hear Dakota's thoughts as to whether the low initial voltage that climbs over hours after charger removal is normal behavior or problematic. The other 2 batteries started at a higher voltage, after charger removal and then slowly declined to resting voltage. Which is what I expected.

Starting battery: DL+ 12v 60Ah Dual Purpose 1000CCA Starter Battery Plus Deep Cycle Performance.

Good luck in getting any info from Dakota I tried for days to talk to somebody and just got the recording. Sent out 3 emails and nothing, a week later got a email back with asking for all the purchasing info and the problem which I gave them with each email. Mega waist of time. That's when I decided to buy the Noco and it cured my problems.

 

[arzenmaster]

I've got a noco now that is not LiFeP04 compatible. I would've bought a noco, but they didn't have any 3 bank LiFeP04 compatible ones in stock.

I went with a minn kota 330 pcl this time. It's also supposed to be able to wake LiFeP04s from standby mode when the BMS locks from low voltage.

 

[jerry shack]

I've got a noco now that is not LiFeP04 compatible. I would've bought a noco, but they didn't have any 3 bank LiFeP04 compatible ones in stock.

I went with a minn kota 330 pcl this time. It's also supposed to be able to wake LiFeP04s from standby mode when the BMS locks from low voltage.

I fish with a bunch of guys that use that charger and they sear by them.

 

[arzenmaster]

Got a form letter email response today from Dakota. I had already supplied the customer support email with all of the data they requested, and then some, by including photos.

I guess they didn't read it completely. They did ship a missing 12v charger (they should've sent 3 on purchase, they only sent 2.), but didn't mention the missing terminal bolts for the trolling batteries.

I immediately tried to get in touch with them about the missing bolts, to no avail. It appears that their business model is designed to thwart customer service contact.

Check out the highlighted paragraph at the bottom admonishing people from trying to repeatedly contact Dakota.

Here is a cut and paste:

This is an automatic response - please read below for important and helpful info.

If you have already received a reply from a live tech, you can disregard this message.



If at all applicable, please reply to this email with the following information if it hasn't already been provided in this conversation.



Your Name (as it appears on your order)

Order Number

Phone Number

Battery Model - Voltage and Amp Hours (Ah)



If you're having an issue with your battery or charger, please answer the following questions.

- What devices are you using the battery with? Please provide max amp pull, make, model, etc.

- If you have access to a multimeter, please let us know the following readings:

* Voltage of the battery before and after attempting a full charge

* Voltage coming out of the charger while not connected to the battery

- Are you using a Dakota Lithium charger? If so, what color is the LED on the charger before and after connecting to the battery?

- What color is the LED after several hours on the charger? What does your charger label say for rated Volts and Amps output?



We highly recommend checking out our Dakota Lithium User Manual & Troubleshooting Guide.

There's great answers to popular questions starting on page 8.

Pages 16 & 17 have troubleshooting tips to solve many common issues.



NOTE: If you don't receive a response right away after sending this additional information, please refrain from sending multiple replies before receiving a response from one of our techs. Each reply changes the date on the thread to the most recent reply. Since we respond to the oldest emails first, extra replies may result in a longer response time.



We’ll do our best to respond to your email within 2 business days.

Our business hours are Monday through Friday, 9 AM to 4 PM Pacific Time.



Sincerely,

Dakota Lithium Support Team

 

[arzenmaster]

Wow. I got another Email reply that I didn't expect. I guess they read through my first email later in the day.

I'm not happy that they're asking me to pay return shipping for a battery that hasn't been used. They also never answered any of my questions as to whether they think the behavior I observed was normal/abnormal?

One of the worst parts is that you can't speak to anyone. I'd hate like hell to send this thing back when they never answered my questions adequately. I'm kind of in a quandry? Does Dakota believe it might be a warranty issue, could it be corrected by discharging and recharging without sending it back?

On the other hand. The more I read by searching the subject on the web about Lithium Batteries, I'm starting to realize the BMS cut out occuring at 13.1v during charging probably is abnormal.

Here is the cut and paste from Dakota (notice it doesn't say warranty replacement or repair):

Hi Chuck,



We need to have the battery reading 13.1v returned for warranty consideration. Please send the battery back to:



Dakota Lithium
Tech Support Attn: 174625

225 S Lucile St.

Seattle, WA 98108

USA



Be sure to include a note with your order information(# and name on order), a description of the problem/reason for return and all of your current contact information.

Without this information, we are unable to process your return.



Shipping lithium batteries is an activity highly regulated by the Federal Government under the Department of Transportation (DOT) hazmat and dangerous goods laws. One of the key issues regarding return shipments of batteries is that federal regulations currently prohibit us from generating your return shipping labels or any shipping papers from our side.



Please remember to never ship a physically cracked. deformed, or damaged battery under any circumstances.



Because of federal hazmat regulations, you must use a logistics service that is hazmat certified to return your battery.



If your battery is over 300Wh, you cannot use UPS unless you are a hazmat certified shipper.



You can use a FedEx Dangerous Goods location that handles dangerous goods.



You can find a FedEx Dangerous Goods location near you by using the FedEx locator, entering your zip code, and clicking on dangerous goods in the search filter.



Click here for the FedEx lithium battery shipping instructions, the correct UN & Class 9 label for your battery, and the MSDS sheet.

A zipped folder will automatically begin downloading from the Dakota Lithium website. The number for the UN label is 800-805-9053.



You must properly package the battery and label the box before bringing it into the FedEx Dangerous Goods location.



After you drop it off, please forward us your assigned tracking number so that we can keep an eye out for it.

Once we receive the battery we will get started on the warranty process.



Please let me know if you have any questions.




How satisfied are you with our service? ᠭ

 

[Gary Gamble]

Well, I was about to purchase 3 Dakota batteries. That is not happening now.

 

[arzenmaster]

OK, I should've read the fine print. Assuming my battery is defective, they'll refund the shipping.

Geeze, that attached email could've mentioned this item without making me dig for the information. Or speaking with someone could've cleared that one up.

• Customer pays return shipping on returns or warrantied component inspections. Shipping costs for qualified returns will be refunded by Dakota Lithium. Please note some battery returns may require special documentation and packaging, and these instances will encounter extra fees. This is in order to correctly comply with lithium battery shipping regulations. For all return shipping we recommend using a local shipping service like FedEx office or the UPS Store

 

[arzenmaster]

This white paper will just about put you to sleep but explains a lot about LiFeP04 batteries and what causes them to go bad.

https://www.takomabattery.com/what-causes-a-battery-failure-lifepo4-battery-failure-reasons/
I ran a partial 12v 4.8 amp load (Hall effect measured.) for 3 hrs on my defective Dakota battery yesterday (using an old 12v trolling motor.) The battery only provided 13.2v under load. I calculated the initial resting capacity at 13.45v or 95%. Remaining capacity after run time of 13.25v or about 75%. At 14.4 amps used on a 54 AH battery leaves 75% capacity. Which is what it should be. Resting voltage is now showing 13.25v.

I then recharged the battery thinking the BMS might correct the issue on a successive charge. The battery recharged to full state with the Dakota battery charging terminating the charge indicating only13.2v at end of charge cycle. It then slowly rose to 13.45v this time over a period of several hours. Again, Dakota won't tell me this is abnormal.

Inference from the white paper article attached, would indicate the probable cause is excessively high "Internal Impedance."

 

[DONAOL]

Wow I’m shocked at the numbers of hoops you have to jump thru for warranty repairs. There seems to be a big push in boating world for lithium batteries. I think I’ll stick with standard boating batteries for now. Until the bugs are fixed on lithium batteries. Have owned four boats in 34 years and only had to return one battery. One Interstate starting battery went bad after a month of use. Called Interstate battery company, explained the problem. They brought me a new battery to my house. That’s the way warranty service should be. I hope everything eventually works out for you. Good luck.

 

[arzenmaster]

I sent an email to Dakota asking if they can ship me another battery. Charge me for the replacement battery, then they could refund me when they get this one back.

I already trashed the shipping boxes. If they don't do as I ask, I'll be scrambling trying to package it up according to the instructions.

Shame on me for burning the boxes before I charged the batteries

EDIT: In retrospect, the shipping process was a non-issue. The FedEx store said they would rather have lithium batteries brought in unpackaged, so they can control how they are packaged and labeled. Carry it in, they confirmed it was not lead acid. I was in and out of the FedEx store in less than 10 minutes.

 

[defiler]

Well, I was about to purchase 3 Dakota batteries. That is not happening now.

check out Impulse Lithium Batteries

 

[arzenmaster]

The warranty page for Impulse reads nearly identical to Dakota's. The customer is responsible to pay return shipping and for inspection yada yada.

Having a heated battery could be appealing. It looks like they have better features.