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Jeff R.

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Hi guys. I wanted to get your thoughts on a good home defense, occasional target shooting gun. I am looking pretty hard at a Ruger P95, which is a 9mm. We have had some break-ins recently in our town, and just last week someone walked in my garage and stole one of my rod and reel combos and I have no idea when, or how they got in.



Would a .22 semi-auto be enough in a defense situation, or should I stick with the 9mm? I want something with a magazine because I don't want to leave a revolver laying around loaded. What are your thoughts on the Ruger P95? I have looked at the Glock's because I know they are king, but I have to keep the cost down to the Ruger P95 price range of $350 new.



Thanks for any tips or advice!



Jeff
 
There are many here that are better suited to give advice on this, but I'll give you what I think.



First, the 22 is NOT ENOUGH! If you want something that will give you 'protection', you better get something that has some umph behind it. I have a 9mm, but many will also tell you that they prefer something with some real knock down power.



Manufacturer - Ruger is certainly a known brand with a good reputation. I'm not personally familar with the model listed, but I will tell you that I would have purchased one, but wanted to keep my purchase a little less expensive.



I have a S&W Sigma, 9mm, with a 16 shot clip (two of them). I'm happy with it, but I do need to take it to a gunsmith (potentially), and get the tension on the trigger adjusted. It's a pretty heavy trigger, and does cause me some 'aiming/accuracy' problems if I don't pay attention.



Regardless, I will offer the same advice to you that was offered to me here. Once you get what you want, go to the range (or into the bush so-to-speak) and put some rounds through it. You want to become familiar with it, and be confident in what you have as a defense weapon.



Tex
 
The .22 is definately not enough in my view because if I were ever faced with using my weapon I don't want a survivor to come back and sue me! If someone ever breaks into my home I feel it is within my rights to take whatever action I deem appropriate and a home invading burglar will get a harsh response from me. My personal preference is my .45 1911 but I also have a 9mm that I have complete confidence in since bullet placement is the key ;)
 
I really like my S&W M&P compact .40, but it was near $600. No matter what you get, like TT said, practice!

Woody, even if the perp dies the family can still sue, at least here in MI. It sucks that our court system even allows someone to sue a homeowner who defends their family and property from someone in their home illegally. :angry:



Gene
 
I have never fired a P95, but I owned a P89DC in the past - nice 9mm for the price. I found a write up for you on the P95. Looks like a pretty decent sucessor to the pistol that I had. I found that here:

http://www.gunweek.com/2005/feature0820.html



I'm with the others opinion in the fact that I do not believe a .22 should be used as a personal defense weapon - unless nothing else is available. Now, don't get me wrong, a .22 can kill someone dead too, but it doesn't have the stopping power of a centerfire cartridge.



There have been many "discussions" (arguements) on various sites over the merits of 9mm v/s .40 v/s .45. My take on it is this - they are all fully capable of stopping a human being and putting them down for good. They are all also capable of fully missing the intended target and causing no harm at all. Even when on target, a dedicated perpetrator may still be hard to take down. I own two .40's (both Springfield XD's), and I'm fully confident in their ability. I'm also fully confident in my own ability to use them properly. But you just never know. I recently read a report of a policeman that confronted a suspect that was drugged up. The perp started firing at the officer and the officer returned fire with a .40, hitting him several times with a quality hollow point bullet. It took several shots to stop this particular perp, and he was hit in areas that would have stopped the majority of people. I don't think that guy would have even felt the affects of a .22.



Whatever weapon you buy - buy something quality that YOU can shoot. It doesn't matter if your buddies or anyone here on the site thinks it is the best pistol available - if YOU can't shoot it, it's a worthless firearm. But if you have a cheap pistol that most wouldn't recommend, but YOU can still put a full magazine on target effectively... well then, THAT is your pistol. Don't get talked out of what you like. That being said - buy reliable as well. If you can shoot it well, but it jams every other round, that's also a useless pistol.



For home defense, don't forget the merits of a good shotgun with buckshot either. Makes on fine stopping machine, and you can get them with pistol grips, shorter "home defense" barrels, and extended magazine tubes. Mossberg 500 makes a fine "home defender" shotgun in both 12 and 20 gauge. If you can help it though - get one (or put one together) that is made for home defense. It's difficult to swing a 28" barrel with full stock around in a defense situation.



P.S. - Biggest mistakes I see people make when buying a new personal defense weapon:

1) Buying the gun and one box of ammo. Shoot a couple rounds, see that it's "good enough" and never shoot it again unless your house gets broken into.



Solution: Buy the gun and several hundred rounds of ammo (I recommend 4 boxes of 50, with 2 boxes of one grain, and two of another - for example .40 in 165 and 180 grain). Go to the range and see how it groups with both sizes of bullet. See what your gun likes to eat.



2) Keeping FMJ rounds in your pistol for home defense.



Solution: After you settle on a grain size, buy the same size defense hollow points. Buy what you want, but if you want a suggestion - I like Speer Gold Dot HP's. I buy them in 50 count "law enforcement" boxes (available online - I can send you a link if you would like). I can buy the 20 count boxes locally, but I pay a few dollars more and get over twice the round count. Even with shipping, it comes out cheaper. I think the 20 count "Personal defense" boxes are a rip-off. Go to the range with your HP's and run at least a full box of those through your weapon to make sure it shoots the same as your FMJ's. Then keep HP's in your magazines for home defense.



3) Buying the weapon with one magazine.



Solution: Ever try reloading a mag in a firefight? It's not fun. Get spare factory mags and use every one of them at the range when you practice.



4) Not practicing.



Solution: Get your tail to the range. Practice, practice, practice. Shoot strong hand supported, strong hand unsupported, weak hand supported, weak hand unsupported, etc... You never know when you're going to have to shoot a certain way.



5) Leave it locked up somewhere where you can't get to it when "it" goes down.



Solution: Get a pistol safe of some kind. Place it somewhere that you can get to in a second or two. The pistol won't do you any good if you can't get to it.



6) Not having a "plan".



Solution: Map out your house. Know it. Yeah, that sounds kinda silly doesn't it. But by that, I mean - if someone breaks into room X, how do you navigate through your house safely, without getting shot yourself, to get to room X? Or how do you defend room Y if blocked into that room? What cover is available? Alternate routes, concealment and manueverability.



7) Not haveing a backup.



Solution: You pull the trigger. Click. Rack slide. Pull trigger. Click. Oh crud. What now? Now is a good time to have something, anything (maybe even that little .22) to defend yourself and family.



Yeah, it's a long list, and I get carried away. But it's Friday. I'm on the way to the range in a few hours. Getting into the "mindset". :p :lol:



All the best,

Glenn

 
Jeff,



As a Personal Defense Firearm Instructor of many years perhaps I can lend a little here.



Utilizing a handgun to defend oneself has many angles to consider, Far to many to consider here. I recommend obtaining a copy of "In The Gravest Extreme" by Massad Ayoob and reading it a couple of times. While the book was originally published several years ago it is still, what I consider, the benchmark on the subject.



But that doesn't answer your question. The best defense gun to have is the one that-



1)Will go bang EVERYTIME you pull the trigger. The loudest sound in the world is your defensive sidearm going CLICK when the flag goes up. Reliablity is first and foremost. Without it it's just an expensive club.



2)You, can/will/know how to use. The best sidearm is useless if you can't/won't/don't know how to utilize it accurately and effectively. Moral issues and lot's of practice here.



3)You will actually have in your hand when you need it most. Desert Eagles are cool and look great in movies but this is not a movie, this is real. Hauling around a chunk of steel the size of a workboot just isn't practical. Make sure that whatever sidearm you choose it is not so big/bulky that it gets left under the bed, in the glove compartment or in the closet, 3 places I'll bet you won't be when you desperately need a gun.



Good Luck-Be Safe,



Dan

















 
I wanna cannon:cool:

Double barrel,couple of 22 traget pistols,9MM and a tazer for the woman should stop anyone coming thru my front door but, my tater gun oughta take care of anything else:lol:
 
I have been thinking about this as well. I have a 9mm, and I will use it if need be. I also have an English Bulldog (65+ lbs) and a Boston Terrier (25+ lbs). The Boston is the one to worry about, the bull looks mean, but will want you to pet him before you leave with all the stuff! But what about the times you are not home, which in my case is a lot. I am looking at the 4 or 5 infrared indoor/outdoor cameras that are wireless that send video to a DVR. They are really coming down in price ($300 Costco), and can record a lot of video.



Had you had the camera covering the garage, you would know who stole it, something to consider.



Shelbydad
 
We keep a back light and front light on and doors locked all times.



If they come in uninvited and we are home then to bad for them.



1. Got a dog that will bite them.

2. Got a baseball bat under the bed to beat them with. This is my favorite because you cant get shot with your own gun it there is a close contact.

3. Got a 12gage DB, short barrel in the closet, 9 shot. It will sting and nock them down so I can beat them with the bat.

4. Got a 357, model 686 with 152 grain stainless steel hollow points close by.



And the last resort if they make it to the second level, throw them out the window.



What ever you do if they are in the house and you injure them make sure they fall down inside or kill them dead and that they have some form of wheppan in their hand. Dead people cant testify against you.



Dan



 
Jeff,



I have a Taurus 99, it's a 9mm. I think that should be the smallest caliber you consider for home defense. TritonGlenn has some really good information, I would consider following many of those recommendations.



Something else to consider is will you ever want to use the gun as a concealed carry weapon?



I have a License to Carry which is honored in 20 states, unfortunately not my home state of Illinois (which does not issue licenses to carry). You may want to buy a gun that is compact enough that you could carry it if you would choose to do so (provided you have the license and you are in a state the honors the license). My PT99 can be carried on my person but it is too big to easily conceal. I wish I had bought something a little more compact. I suppose I do have the excuse to go and buy another gun now but that wont happen for a while.
 
Speaking of carrying in other states, anyone know where to find which ones honor a Michigan permit?



Gene
 
Best Home defense gun, bar none is a 20 gauge youth shotgun. Only on t.v. do handguns work. In the hands of highly trained professionals, in most cases handguns do not get the job done. Try waking out of a deep sleep and grabing your handgun and get it pointed on anything. I shoot handguns 3 or 4 times a week, shoot in many competions, with pretty good sucess. IF I need to make a shot in the middle of the night, God forbid, I want to hit and stop whatever it is I shoot at. Even the mighty 45 won't stop someone with a non vital shot. Go to the FBI stats, you will be suprised. Go to Academy, buy yourself a Remington 20 gauge youth model, and you are done.



Bubby:)
 
I agree with Gilbert. I keep a 12 guage, 18 1/2" barrel, pistol grip, loaded with 6 shells of 00 buckshot handy.

Heck with the handguns, I'm letting the Big Dog do the barking.



Steve
 
This has been debated here and a whole lot of other places...



I have an opinion based on more years of experience than I now care to admit...



Home Defense, layered and prepared and trained and practiced or you are kidding yourself...



Weapon, 1st choice and what I have "at the ready"... 20 ga pump with 7 rounds as follows; 5 # 7 1/2 game loads... at inside the house distances from a 20" skeet barrel it is a small wad of lead about 2" in diameter at the max remember that you gotta hit "it" accurately it won't cover a whole doorway inside the house (no matter what TV shows say) ... just those 2 inches, then those are backed by 2 #4 buckshot loads (.25 caliber round balls) that I believe are more reliable than #00 at covering a target at 20 yards. 2nd weapon is my .45 Gov't Model in a nylon shoulder rig (at night you have no pants and no belt, the shoulder rig slips right on. 2 extra mags, a folder by Gerber Tactical Fairbairn, and a small AA Mag light and a cell pnone holder/pouch (you can call the good guys and tell them you are a good guy, too!) some slip on shower shoes that are like those rubber over the shoe boots (keeps your feet from gettinmg messed up/hurt and taking YOU out of the fight) You can substitute a good 4 inch .357 Revolver for the .45 (and reluctantly I would accept a .40 against my own strongly held prejudices) I'm not that fond of hollow points, I would rataher have heavy semi wad cutter "Keith Style" bullets with a half jacket at 215 grs (mine are cast from wheel weights).



Double Tap every handgun shot... And do not stop shooting/hitting the perp until he/she ain't moving any more! As long as he can move he can fire back and that is bad...



My last comment is also based on some strongly held personal opinions... Massad Ayoob is not the "second coming". He is just one voice, and one that is sometimes criticized by some pretty solid resumes.
 
I have been going through this "what do I do and what should I buy" thing for about six months now and still haven't bought anything. I think I have it settled to a choice few but the only firearms dealer near me unfortunately decided to raise his prices for just about any firearm that has been talked about here. And I mean sometimes at least two times the MSRP prices.

I agree with Bubby though in regard to the 20ga Remington. I would much rather have the Mossberg 12ga with the 18 1/2" barrel and pistol grip but I think that's dangerous in such a litigious society. The Remington will do the same job and it won't be as dangerous, keeping you out of danger during a civil trial. Stay Safe.



Uncle Billy
 
Gene,

The laws have changed in Michigan.....no more lawsuits against the "good guys".
 
Jeff, I'll answer your question about the Ruger P95. I have one (along with many other very nice firearms). The Ruger P95 is a quality handgun. It's very reliable and most are quite accurate right out of the box. It's a real pleasure to shoot and simple to take down (and reassemble) for cleaning. A good quality ammo gives it 'nice' stopping power too. Remember in handguns stopping power is only as good as your mark. COM (center of mass) gives the most vital organs as your POA (point of aim) when wishing to 'stop the threat'! I use Remington Golden Saber 124 grain jacketed hollow points in the P95. This is now mainly my wife's nightstand weapon as she is easily able to rack the slide and shoot it well. I keep a heavier caliber close to me. Bottom line on the Ruger P95 is; it's a very good handgun choice.



As to the other advice here, alot of good information has been offered. Much of it can or may apply to your needs in a defense situation inside your home. My best advice to you on that note is to consider your needs and circumstances and make a plan. Know the laws in your state too. For example, Ohio has the Castle law. This makes it legal to consider anyone in your home (uninvited) as a threat to your life. And also makes it impossible to be sued by surviving family or friends for your actions.



The other best advice was offered here already.........PRACTICE,PRACTICE,PRACTICE! Know whichever weapon you choose to buy INTIMATELY and be able to use it if/when needed.
 
"Massad Ayoob is not the "second coming"



Greg, you took the words right out of my mouth. I've even read that people have been kicked out of some forums for talking against the almighty MAS.



Jeff, on keeping the cost down, just save for an extra couple of weeks and go for the Glock. It's less than $200 more than you're planning. You can't go wrong with what you, yourself, called the "king".
 
Agree w/Smitty!! a 20ga. w/birdshot will change a perp's mind in a hurry!! The sound of a shell racking into the chamber is unmistakeable and the shot won't penetrate walls when there are other peeps in the house...but it will leave a mark on the PERP!!!) I have a S&W 9mm (Model 910) and a Kimber .45 (1911 style) BOTH with Crimson Trace grips. I carry once in a while,(especially if I go anywhere near downtown Detroit!!) but I like the .45 when I do..for some reason it "conceals" better than the 9mm. (It feels better too in the holster!)



.22's are fun to plink with and ammo is cheap and easy to find...but if you ever have to protect yourself, your family or your home...a .22 will just make a crack/meth-head MAD. Let'em see the business end of a shotgun or .45 and he'll wish he would've stayed home and ordered a pizza! ;):blink:
 
For serious social encounters, we have:



1 A stoeger Coach Gun (double barrel 12 guage shotgun with a 20 inch barrel - great for sticking around corners - or shooting thru walls). This is loaded with # 18 bird shot - @ 25 feet you can stick a watermelon through the hole it makes in dry wall.



2 a Glock Model 21 .45 ACP (lots of noise and 13 rounds).



3 a Ruger .22 cal MK II (my wife is happy with the Ruger).
 
Thanks guys for all of the great advice and information. My FOID came in the mail today so I can begin to actively gun shop. Im on the fence now whether to get a 9mm pistol or a .20 youth shotgun. Maybe I can find a great deal and buy both!! (the wife would kill me with one of them if I did!!)
 
Buy the 9mm NEW from a reputable gun dealer,....and check a local pawn shop for the .20ga....you could get a GREAT deal on that!!;)
 
Thanks Jeff I'll check it out.

Ken, Really? My class was in April and the talked a lot about civil suits after the incident. I hope you are right, it only makes sense. I suppose that's why I'm questioning it. :lol:



Gene
 
Mac - after just visiting several local pawn shops recently, I found the following:



Their prices on items are really high. No wonder they have successful businesses. I was looking for a small black and decker electric sander. New at Walmart was about $25.00 - 35.00; depending upon model.



Those that I found were 'rough around the edges' (being used of course) and ran $29-40. Of course, the owner was going to let me have one for $22 ($7 off).



Suggest that if you haven't been in a pawn shop lately, most will shake you down pretty good. Of course, their 'big deal' is that they will take in 'trades' and of course have that great layaway plan.



Tex
 
Everything's negotiable Tex....and it was only a suggestion. If it's a good deal...you'll know it,...if not (like you found out) walk away. No harm in looking!
 
My local pawn shop has a youth .20 for $240. Is that too high? I am buying the 9mm tomorrow! I went with the Ruger P95 in stainless. I read nothing but good reviews and it seems like the best bang for the buck for what I am needing it for.
 
$240 is a good price...they're selling for @ $350+ new.....make sure it's in good condition before you buy it!! ;)
 
Dicks sporting goods - brand new Mossberg pump 20 gauge youth - $245.

All the best,

Glenn
 
Jeff, good choice. The Ruger semi-autos I have shot never look particularly ergonomic at arms-length, but actually turn out to be comfortable and accurate.



Glenn, every once in a while, Dick's advertises $20 off firearms $200 or more, so I suspect that Mossberg could be gotten for even less. That's a great "one gun for everythign" solution.
 
Rich, when I went to buy the Ruger, I wanted to handle several different guns just to make sure I liked the P95 the best. I held the Glock's, Smith & Wesson's, Colt's, and many other brands I can't remember. The Ruger really felt the best to me. I like the thicker grip which seems to fit the inside of my hand better than the thinner grips on other guns. Instead of having to squeeze to hold it tight, it lays right in there just right, nice and firm. Many of the other guns felt too thin, and many, including the most popular brand that starts with a G felt almost toy-like compared to the Ruger.



I live in Illinois so my 3 day wait ends tomorrow so I get to pick my gun up. I hope to be able to shoot it this weekend, but if not, fo rsure next week. I can't wait!
 
Don't forget your eye and ear protection!! (All ranges will require or supply them anyway, but even if you go plink on private property, you NEED the safety stuff!!)



Good luck and keep centered!;)
 

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